The Topic of Great Randomness

[EWizard11]

Aurora: I see your point. But I think that it's okay to agree with someone else's arguments, as long as you've really thought about what you're agreeing to. I mean, you don't go through the newspaper, scanning every issue, and decide that your opinion is what everyone else is saying (unfortunately newspapers can't avoid a bit of bias...but you already knew that ). You form opinions, or decide that you agree with already existing opinions, on issues you really care about. You don't form or agree with opinions just to have an opinion. People who do that assume the semblance of being able to think for themselves, but really they can't.

*Ella*

"'Do we start kicking now?'
'No, Spongebob, that's a chorus line.'"
-Spongebob Squarepants

[Sam]

M: Yes, I do think it is kind of odd, but my friend claims to be Christian, but says that the Bible is bogus. So...

Aurora, you really make alot of sense to me, but even if I don't HAVE to think in school, I still do, and normally make all A's last year I had a 99.9% average in math one nine weeks, which I'm very proud of!

~Sam (Hifun55) and Dog~
One by one the garden gnomes slowly steal my sanity.

[papercrane]

M: hmm...what do you mean by 'Christian'? Catholic? Protestant? or just generally a church-goer and bible-reader? Because my definition of a Christian is someone who believes that Christ died and rose again to atone for the world's sins--and each individual's sins personally--and has accepted that gift. Your definition might be different...
Aurora: lol, I get through a surprising amount of classes without thinking too... And personally, I think opinions are formed on analysis of information. Much of that information is, naturally, others' opinions. If you look at it that way, everything is someone else's opinion.
Tui: *is curious* so you believe that the, er, events happened, but don't believe they were miracles?

Words are the litmus paper of the minds. If you find yourself in the power of someone who will use the word "commence" in cold blood, go somewhere else very quickly. But if they say "Enter", don't stop to pack.
--Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

[Birdhead]

My idea is that... well. See, what happens a lot, humans being what they are, is that small coincidences or good things happen, and they they get exaggerated. Like urban myth, and stuff. So... the same thing happened then, is my idea. Also, with a greater scientific knowledge that we have now... I'll take the Christ Rising From his Grave thing, although I appreciate it's not the best one. In medieval times, there used to be a disease, name I can't remember, which would cuase people to look as though they were dead. So they got buried, etc, and then- sometimes- they woke up. (Mostly, I woudl guess, before they got buried: there's not a lot of coming back from six feet under.) I believe it's possible that a similar thing could have happened with someone calling himseklf jesus- or with a whole lot of different people, and it got amalgamated. That happens, in myth, a lot: why should the Bible be different?

"We are philosophical geniuses [sic] who will one day rule the world!"
--Agent M
Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha!
Still the Typo Queen

[Agent M]

But he was stabbed and he had bled to death, you can't raise from the dead after that, that's not a disease. But I agree with you on the miracles, the bible often exaggerates. Sam, i'd like to meet your friend.... The only other Christian I know who thinks the bible is complete bogus. I g2g!~ ACK!~

*Agent~M*
"Those who refuse the Powers, become the tools of the Powers, Those who agree to help the powers, Themselves become the Powers. Beware the Choice! Beware refusing it!"-Young Wizards books.
"Do what the night tells you, and read the fine print before you sign!" -Peach.
"In the Cookies of life, your friends are the chocolate chips" -Sam

[papercrane]

Tui: I see where you're coming from; however, one must take into account the incredible amount of detail from four different sources, written at different times, all testifying that Christ was stabbed in the side and nailed to a cross. People who are crucified die of suffocation. The position they're nailed up in makes it impossible to breathe unless they use the nails pounded into their feet and wrists to push themselves up--incredibly painful, and impossible to maintain. Also, Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of old to the letter. Incidentally, Lloyd C. Douglas deals with miracles etc. in his novel The Robe; has anyone here read that? Amazing book.
Aargh. I don't have time right now to go into this properly, but I'll try and get on tonight...

Words are the litmus paper of the minds. If you find yourself in the power of someone who will use the word "commence" in cold blood, go somewhere else very quickly. But if they say "Enter", don't stop to pack.
--Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

[Birdhead]

Yeah, I know. That's why that miracle, in particular, was a really bad choice; I just didn't have time to go find another miracle. But... take the Loaves and Fishies. (deliberate misspelling.) The idea is that Christ multiplied... what, two fish and three loaves... to feed a whole crowd. To me, though, that suggests a garbled story- passed on by that whole crowd- of someone who was persuasive enough to get everyone in the crowd who's brought food to share it with those who didn't. So you have, not a miracle (well, depending on your definition), just a really Nice Guy. (Which, by the way, I think JC probably was. I don't think he was the son of god. I do think he existed.)

"We are philosophical geniuses [sic] who will one day rule the world!"
--Agent M
Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha!
Still the Typo Queen

[Aurora]

My Two cents-

Moses parting the Red Sea- Did you know that before a tsunami, water actually draws back and lowers befpre the wave itself? That, for me, is a viable explanation of what COULD have happened. Of course, there are others.

the Walking on the Water- This one is simple. Walking on the water- what does that mean in older english? It means the same as walking by the water. Which is actually possible... also, there's ONE sea in the world that's so salty that one cannot sink in it... Don't remember which it is though.

However, personally, I begin to suspect some sort of Fate or Destiny DOES exist- just because I met my T-kun in the summer, then met another friend, only to find out she was T-kun's ex-girlfriend, and THEN I encountered one of my old friends and found out she knows T-kun's close friend... Fate plays both sides of the board though- the ONLY winter HE'S at home for, is the winter I'm in CALI!

Kitsune Rei ~kisses taste nice~

[brokencello]

That salty sea would be the Dead Sea (nothing can live in its saltiness) and Jesus walked on the Sea of Galilee. But can we not talk about religion? I won't say what I am, but I've studied many religions and just recently decided. For religion:
I knew a boy and a girl who were dating and they were best friends. (he was euro, she was asian) One day, religion came up. Angry shouts. Furious. They yelled throughout the hallways. This old nun from a block away came over and talked to them about it. She was Hmong, he was Catholic. The Hmong got even more angry. Finally, her family moved away. They both changed their email addresses, and when she came back to visit us, not a word was spoken between them. We tried to help, but it made it worse. I just really don't want that to happen with us.

brokencello
the crinkled paper bag
"Life isn't like the movies, Toto."
--Alfredo, Cinema Paradiso

[papercrane]

The Robebybyis

Wow, that took awhile to type. Anyway...I had to cut it down a lot

[Birdhead]

...well, see, to me that means nothing, because all information from that far back is inaccurate anyway. *shrugs* That's just me opinion, and probably is an excellent example of them that are so blind, etc. But for myself, I do not see the Bible as a truth. In some places I think it has some great emssages. But if I was to be Christian (yeah, 'cause that's real likely... ) I would have to treat it as a "metaphor for life," or whatever the phrase is: it's a good guide but I do not believe it to be the literal truth, and cannot. What I think about the miracles is similar, I guess: the idea that, 2000 years ago, there might have been this cool dude who talked a lot about love and forgiveness (all topics which I appreciate, I will add.) I do not think he was the Son of God: so how could these miracles attend to him? (I suspect my logic here is circular. Meh.) So... I don't really think these are eyewitness accounts. *shrugs* You'll disagree with me there, is all. That's OK.

Now, the parting of the Red Sea, that's not an eyewitness account, is it? So my points about filtering down still apply...

*hugs bc* It's OK, bc, really it is! We're not going to do that, because I for one am offering to resign now. I do know that that kind of thing can and does happen, so let's agree: we either don't let it get personal, or don't have this conversation at all. I don't mind having it if you guys don't mind, and, very much also, if no-one's going to be hurt or bothered, and we all agree to stop if someone starts being bothered. OK???]
Because bc's right, that's a risk, but hopefully it won't happen here.

"We are philosophical geniuses [sic] who will one day rule the world!"
--Agent M
Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha, Ahahahaha!
Still the Typo Queen

[papercrane]

hmm...I'm wondering--where do you base the statement 'all information from that far back is inaccurate anyway'? because to me (note: the following is merely a summary of what I understand and is being posted so you can point out inaccuracies in my perception) it sounds like you're saying that the Bible is not the truth and Jesus was not the Son of God because you do not see them as such.

If I remember correctly, Moses himself wrote the book of Exodus, so yes--it would be an eyewitness account, but one in a whole different area of research and in the Old Testament anyway. I suggest we limit this discussion to the New Testament, because otherwise things get really, really complicated.

And yes, I agree with Tui--if someone starts gettiing offended, I'll stop.

Ay de mi--I gtg. Hopefully I'll be on sometime later.

Words are the litmus paper of the minds. If you find yourself in the power of someone who will use the word "commence" in cold blood, go somewhere else very quickly. But if they say "Enter", don't stop to pack.
--Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

[Aurora]

Well, to me, the only way I can look at the Bible without serious bias is to see it as mythology, the same as Greek mythology or Norse mythology or Shinto mythology. So the Bible is to me, Mythology.

What can I say? Things get exaggerated and rewritten over time. There are mistakes in translations.

Especially in the King James version of the Bible. That one is particularly biased. Exodus 22:18, for instance, reads "Thou shalt not allow a witch to live." but before the King James versions, it doesn't say that- it says something similar, I'm not sure of this any longer (I knew this very well at one point), but before the King James version, Exodus 22:18 does NOT read "Thou shalt not allow a witch to live." Of that fact I'm sure- before King James, I think it said something like a temptress.

I see not a lot wrong with modern Christianity- Though I am about as Christian as Tui, the morals and messages the Bible teaches are good. Mostly. However, there's a certain edge, you know- there's a lot of bias in there. Against witches, others... Just think of what people have DONE in their belief.

I won't say I believe the Bible is untrue- I, however, see it as mythology.

Kitsune Rei ~kisses taste nice~

[Aurora]

But like BC said- this topic is kind of edgy to most people, including myself. I would prefer not to throe a fit over this. So let's change the subject. I don't always control my temper as well as I could- to quote some people, "You need anger management classes.." which is usually said after they get me angry and I slap them, or hit them, or throw a textbook at them.

Know what's kind of funny? How some older people get about interracial relationships. Well, you might not deal with it, but I'm in a more conservative rural area, so it DOES have an impact. As a friend told me, "If a old lady gives you a mean look on the streets for showing affection with ******, it might be because she sees a good white boy with a dirty ch*nk." I thought it was hilarious, anyway, because to me... I dunno... because to me, the idea that inter-racial relationships are wrong is plan STUPID. We're all people, right? Race doesn't really matter in the issue of relationships. You love who you love...

Why am I talking about this? Because I KNOW my parents don't really like, nor trust, T-kun. They haven't even really met him yet. And you know what they called him? They told me he was a drug lord, and a pimp who was gonna sell me to a prostitution ring in Vancouver. And my mother's seen him about TWICE, my father about ONCE. Considering when someone snuck drugs into his bag, he freaked and found a teacher and forked the herbs over PROBABLY rules out the drug lord idea... and the fact I don't even know how he'd KNOW a prostitution ring in VANCOUVER... And I have the SNEAKING SUSPICION that this wouldn't MATTER if he was asian, and not european. --'' If not my parents, my grandparents- likely my father's side, because mum's side is part french anyway.

Kitsune Rei ~kisses taste nice~

[papercrane]

Ok, if it bothers you...sorry, but I enjoy debates. It's sort of like fencing with facts, only you have to be tactful and you have to have lots of sources up your sleeves.
That is kind of funny, in a poor-you,-I-wouldn't-want-it-to-happen-to-me sort of way.

Words are the litmus paper of the minds. If you find yourself in the power of someone who will use the word "commence" in cold blood, go somewhere else very quickly. But if they say "Enter", don't stop to pack.
--Terry Pratchett, Small Gods