Announcement

**Sean L.** · August 23, 2007, 05:21:39 PM

From Kathy, in chat:

kli6: it's up to you guys whether it comes back or not.
kli6: Raise the tone; quit the flirting and innuendos, be scrupulous about the ToS, and the chat comes back.
kli6: Talk about the books upon occasion.
kli6: Don't form cliques.
kli6: Don't be rude.
kli6: Stop using it as your personal socializing space.
kli6: And use it as the YW chat.
kli6: And it will come back.

---

Even though I disagree with the decision, I realize the reasons behind it and the merits of it. As such, I wish wholeheartedly for the return of chat right away, even as I realize some time away might be exactly what we need to realize how much we treasure it.

However, I realize that even if we all sincerely come to the realization that we did something wrong and do an about-face right away, chat wouldn't come back tomorrow.

As such, I'm posting a 'temporary' chatroom, if you will, one unofficial and not supported by DD. Its purpose is to give the members that normally frequent yw chat a chance to stay connected if they wish to talk to a bunch of people without being in an unmoderated chatroom that could have predators join.

The temporary chatroom is hosted via IRC, and the server is 'irc.afternet.org'; the channel is '#youngwizards', no quotes. For those that know what IRC is, they can navigate there with their clients. For those that don't, see J's post below. For easy access, the web link is here.

NOTE: Keep in mind that in according with the purpose of the temporary chatroom, the TOS will be enforced just as it would be if it were yw chat). All admin members in the irc chatroom will be silencing (and if necessary, kicking or even banning) users that do not follow the youngwizards TOS.

Consider it practice for when chat gets reinstated. IRC #youngwizards is there so we can stay together in a good environment, not so we can ignore the TOS without repercussions.

**starkruzr** · August 23, 2007, 06:06:39 PM

For those of you who don't know what IRC is, it stands for "Internet Relay Chat." IRC predates instant messaging and anything like Chime, and is a system that often has hundreds of users on any given network.

Easy directions for joining the new chat:
1) Go here: http://www.afternet.org/chat
2) For "Nickname," put your name.
3) For "Channel," put #youngwizards
4) Press Continue.
5) You're done!

This is definitely not the way I think any of us want it, and since IRC is not as easy to use as Chime we will almost certainly have fewer users, but we want to welcome the forum admins as well as DD herself to it to see that we can be committed to not being jerks and keeping to the promise that we made.

**Wizard Girl** · August 24, 2007, 06:29:15 AM

It makes me sad that we've had to resort to closing the chat area because people can't get it together. I do think that DD made the right call about it, and I agree with Sean: some time away might be exactly what we need to realize how much we treasure it. Maybe with this temporary chat area we'll be able to prove, over time, that we're ready for chat to be reinstated. Let's fix this people, before chat gets removed permanently.

**EricG1793** · August 24, 2007, 09:22:55 AM

This... is... all... MY...fault.

Like Gigo was saying in chat a few days ago, if I would just talk to people in private chats instead of carrying out a whole argument in the main chat area (which I am known to do), things wouldn't get heated up and angry. All this is my fault, and if I hadn't joined, hadn't gotten in to the chat, this wouldn't have happened....The majority of what you're describing happened when I was in the room, getting angry with someone for correcting me when I was wrong anyway. Maybe they were being slightly mean, but it certainly wasn't right for me to carry it out, when I was wrong, and get in to an argument.

**Sunshine** · August 24, 2007, 11:49:37 AM

Originally posted by EricG1793:
This... is... all... MY...fault.

As much as people like to lay the blame on others, it wasn't entirely you, Eric. It's been going on for a while, and though some people have cleaned up their act when messaged by a mod, the majority haven't. I, too, agree with Sean. While I may not agree with the decision made, I can most certainly understand why it was made. But it also doesn't matter if any of us agree with DD or not. This is her forum, her chat, and she's the one who pays the bill and has to deal with angry parents, who have every right to be angry if their child is in an environment they feel warrants the title "unsafe." It's also to prevent DD from getting sued if anything too serious like this happens again. It's not just one or two slight mistakes made. It's the continuous events that have built up over time. The only way to bring chat back is to prove that we're willing to improve.

So I for one will openly apologize here for anything I may have said or done to have added fuel to the fire in this instance, such as using violent a bit too "rough" for chat, or arguing with people in open chat when it should have been taken to PM. DD, I Really am sorry.

Sunshine

**Kathy Li** · August 24, 2007, 12:50:30 PM

Eric, stop getting a swelled head and hogging the limelight. You're not that important. I forgive you. My and Garrett's first instinct was to apologize to Lee for not keeping a closer eye on the chat. It's everybody's fault. That's the problem.

What's been going on isn't so much an individual infraction, but a general drift in tone over time, so that people think things that aren't ok don't even warrant the lifting of the eyebrows. So someone used bad language? So what? So there was sexy talk? So what? It's not like there were any kids in there...

Sigh.

The reason that DD mostly wants the chat shut down is because we all nag or ban people on the individual infractions, but the attitude remains. People behave for a while, but once they relax and think they're not under the admins' eagle eyes any more, it starts up again. (Most) people don't speak up. People don't do anything to guide the conversation back to safe channels, or discourage continuation of the behavior. "So, when you think we're gonna get banned?" kind of conversations go on, instead of simply behaving themselves and making chat a pleasant place to be, rather than an uncomfortable one.

Moderating the chat has gotten to be harder and harder and harder, because people feel they continually have to test the rules. Or question them. They worry more about the letter of the law (and getting away with something) than they do about the spirit of the law or why it's there. Yes, that's part of being a kid/teenager. But did you want to be thought of as an adult some day? Maybe you'll want to start practicing sometime.

Frankly, from my point of view, I've got better things to do with my time than spend an hour every day wading through 24 hours of short-attention-span-theater to comb for infractions.

And to top it all? Not one word about YW. Which is why this board and this chat exist in the first place.

Myself, I can forgive a lot. And it takes a lot to trigger the "ban someone" thought in me (the last time, it took outright hate-crime rhetoric). But the one thing that will make me see absolute red if I see it in chat or on the board in response to breaking the rules is: "I don't care."

That's like... Lone Power territory. I don't care if I kill the chat. I just want my fun.

If someone is carrying on--stop talking to them, change the subject, report them to the admins, politely request that they desist--but don't sit there and not care. Do something. Teach them to care. Don't think it's someone else's problem, or just hope it goes away on its own. And gods above, don't think it's OK. Take responsibility for each other.

Because if you can't do this for the little things, what happens when the big issues face you? I have friends who didn't vote in the last election ("Who cares?" "It's rigged." "Bush is still gonna win.") And it's the same attitude.

So you want to be a wizard? Here's where it starts. Here's where you write the spells to change the way people think or act. Learn to put your words together carefully. Use them well.

Care.

Ask not what your messageboard can do for you...

Ok, I'm gonna go put my soapbox away, now. I've got work to do.

**EricG1793** · August 24, 2007, 01:06:02 PM

kli6:
Eric, stop getting a swelled head and hogging the limelight. You're not that important. I forgive you. My and Garrett's first instinct was to apologize to Lee for not keeping a closer eye on the chat. It's everybody's fault. That's the problem.

I don't know what "hogging the limelight" means. Could you please explain? I don't think I'm important; we all know that.

You and Garrett did nothing wrong. It's not that you didn't pay attention to chat, it's just that you simply weren't around. We know that Garrett's Internet connection is down at his house, and he has to work whenever he's near a working computer, and you probably are too busy with work entirely. Don't you two feel bad; it's not your fault at all.

Edit, after Kathy's reply (this is too short to make in to a whole post):

Oh, OK, thank you! You taught me something new!

As far as me doing that, what did I do to make me seem to be "hogging the limelight"?

**Kathy Li** · August 24, 2007, 01:33:14 PM

I was teasing you. "Hogging the limelight" is a theatrical term, similar to "being upstaged." It means doing something to get all the attention on yourself. I know it's horribly old-fashioned of me, but I do sometimes use the smileys in their oldest sense as a "just kidding" indicator.

And yeah, Lee said pretty much the same thing to me and Garrett. But when people behave when we're in there, and don't when we're not; the inescapable corollary is that we tend to think we need to be in there more. Until we stop and reflect that members should probably be following the ToS whether we're in there or not. Just as in normal society, you (hopefully) don't need a cop standing over you to keep you a law-abiding citizen.

**Snuffleupagus** · August 24, 2007, 05:11:59 PM

Originally posted by kli6:
And to top it all? Not one word about YW. Which is why this board and this chat exist in the first place.

I know I said as much to you in chat, Kathy, but there hasn't been a Young Wizards novel released to the general public and a manner that is accessible to the majority of the chatroom members (who don't have access to bank accounts, credit cards, etc. to use Paypal with). The few people who are of age to read that have discussed the stuff intermittently from what I've seen. But still, there are only a few of them who come into the chatroom.

But the one thing that will make me see absolute red if I see it in chat or on the board in response to breaking the rules is: "I don't care."

That's like... Lone Power territory. I don't care if I kill the chat. I just want my fun.

That's really decent rhetoric, but I think you're misconstruing that person's intentions. No one in chat has ever wanted to "destroy" it, as far as I know. Not even the one who got banned for "hate crime rhetoric." Most all of us have found friends from this forum and chatroom that we talk to on a regular basis, none of whom we want to turn our backs on. If you're referring to the member I think you're referring to, the only reason they didn't care about getting THEMSELVES banned or walking on the edge of the rules were the infractions that had been taken against them and the general teenage drama that occurred in the past has created an environment rather hard to value. Of course, I speak only for myself.

Do something.

The biggest problem is that we have users of ALL ages. The youngest ones CAN be annoying and the older ones CAN be annoying teenage drama queens. But regardless, what do you propose we do when thirteen year olds are acting like thirteen year olds? Report them? Is a stern talking to going to change their behavior? Are you going to remove their chat privileges for something that is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things? I don't mean to be disagreeable, but it just seems that kids will be kids and I don't see much you can do about that save waiting till they grow up (I'm not referring to, uhm, more perverted discussions).

And I have no idea how to preview this post so I'm just gonna hit post now and hope I didn't make myself sound too much like a butt.

Edit: To clarify, it's not that I'm saying we do NOTHING, but that in our inaction or in our saying "You're being a butt, Andrew." we're letting the other person know that they're out of line and we're not having to run to some foreign authority every five seconds to solve our disputes. You say that we should behave ourselves when you're not around, but yet say that whenever you're not around we should run to you to inject your authority.

Edit 2: Maybe it's just me but I find the rating on this thread rather hilarious. Who gave it the one checkmark? XDD

Edit 3, a final edit I think: Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying though. I'm not attempting to say that DD or Lee or Kathy or anyone is wrong here. The rules were broken, we were warned, etc etc.

**Kathy Li** · August 24, 2007, 06:11:16 PM

Originally posted by Snuffleupagus:

...That's like... Lone Power territory. I don't care if I kill the chat. I just want my fun.

That's really decent rhetoric, but I think you're misconstruing that person's intentions. No one in chat has ever wanted to "destroy" it, as far as I know. Not even the one who got banned for "hate crime rhetoric."

But what do you think the Terms of Service are for? Of course, nobody wakes up and says, "I think I'll be evil today." Everybody thinks they're justified or right in what they do. But the fact remains that the Terms of Service are solely there to protect the existence of the board/chat.

Breaking them, and not caring about breaking them puts them at risk.

Do something.

The biggest problem is that we have users of ALL ages. The youngest ones CAN be annoying and the older ones CAN be annoying teenage drama queens. But regardless, what do you propose we do when thirteen year olds are acting like thirteen year olds? Report them? Is a stern talking to going to change their behavior? Are you going to remove their chat privileges for something that is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things? I don't mean to be disagreeable, but it just seems that kids will be kids and I don't see much you can do about that save waiting till they grow up (I'm not referring to, uhm, more perverted discussions).

But that's exactly what we are talking about, here. And normal thirteen year old behavior can still happen without breaking the Terms of Service agreement. We don't ban people for acting like thirteen year olds. We ban them for acting like brats who will not listen, will not apologize, will not change, and continue to annoy after they've been politely asked to stop. And we give advance and fair warning each time it happens. Most people are given multiple chances to fix their behavior.

And as for the ALL-ages thing--yes, again, that's what this is all about. Because this is an all-ages board, we have to make sure it's best for the youngest of us at all times (and in my personal memory of board members, to me that means someone 8 years old). You think it's hard as a late-teen/early 20s person to cater to a 13-year-old? Try being in your forties catering to twenty-somethings. The 13-year-olds are hecka easier, sometimes.

Having an admin give you a stern talking to is one thing. Having your friends give you a stern talking to is another. And "relatively minor in the grand scheme of things" is your point of view. We are concerned with behavior that risks the existence of the chat/board. From where I sit, that's pretty major.

You say that we should behave ourselves when you're not around, but yet say that whenever you're not around we should run to you to inject your authority.

No, I was actually saying pick one. Although I'm not sure they're all that contradictory. If you all did the first, you wouldn't have to do the latter.

But those aren't your only choices, either. Get creative and find another way if none of the ones I listed works for you--I mean, heck, I don't have anything close to all the answers; I only know the ones that have worked for me in 20+ years of posting on boards.

The only wrong thing is to do nothing about it and disclaim all responsibility because it wasn't you, or not taking responsibility for your own actions.

Ultimately, the character of a board or a chat is down to its participants. Every word you type, every opinion you espouse, every argument you make sets the tone, and determines how successful or not this board is going to be.

That doesn't mean you have to write like Shakespeare, or not goof around and have fun. But it does mean you might want to think a little about the effect of your words before typing anything.

--edited to fix nested quote marking. kli

**EricG1793** · August 24, 2007, 06:20:24 PM

I just realized, Kathy, you mentioned before that you often use smilies to symbolize that you're just kidding. To myself I thought you were using it to cover yourself for people getting frustrated for whatever you said... and then sometimes I thought you were using it because you were trying to be nice. I don't exactly think of as a way of symbolizing you're just kidding; maybe would be more appropriate. Because you've used smilies a lot when you've said something to me, and that must mean that everything you say to me is you kidding me, so please, so you don't confuse people, don't use the to symbolize that you're kidding. Maybe or would be better, or . I'm not criticizing your good moderating technique, but sometimes the smilies are a deceiving and confusing....

OK now back to closing down chat....

I just thought of this, and have a question....

Lee said that she'd be closing the chat "unless we start seeing some immediate changes in behaviour." But by closing the chat, how can we prove ourselves responsible and worthy to use it when there isn't a mod present? You can't see transcripts of the substitute/temporary chat that Sean set up, so how does that help, either? I'm not trying to be critical; however I just don't understand how we can prove ourselves worthy if we have no way to do so anyway.

Although the overall situation... I'm not against chat closing, because it was getting out of hand and nobody can deny that.... It needs to freeze for a while. I rated this thread five checks. *Ducks* (Don't flame me! ) I was there when most of this badness happened, and (as I said before) I feel as though I was responsible for quite a big part of it all.... I'm very disturbed by it all (especially someone calling me something extremely bad... even my parents have never said that around me....

**Kathy Li** · August 24, 2007, 06:28:11 PM

Eric, I don't think at this point I'm going to get that consistent with my smileys. I don't think ANYBODY is that consistent with their smileys. But I'll try and use them that way for you. From now on, for just kidding.

The chat will open when an admin wants to. Right now, we don't want to, very much. :/ But that will probably fade after we've gotten a rest.

In the meantime, there's the IRC channel and the board itself as other ways to prove good behavior.

The subscription payment is for the board archives (not even the board, just the extra space to archive the old messages), and had nothing to do with chat. And the chat is priced on a tiered structure by the maximum number of people who can be in chat simultaneously.

We once went over the max of 25 people, so DD upped the limit at increased cost. And she'd routinely get 40 RSVPs or so for the official chats, so it seemed justified, but then only 12 people would show up, because people RSVPed "just in case." Again, a matter of people not doing what they promised they would. DD's decided to give up the higher tier, and cut our max back down to 25 (or maybe it was 20. Not sure. One of those). Can't say as I blame her.

**Mel** · August 24, 2007, 08:06:19 PM

I'm really, really sorry that it came to this, I really, truly am. I knew it was a bit bad before, but not _this_ bad... I guess I always manage to just miss these things, but it is a sad occurrence. I feel bad that when these things did start up when I was there that I didn't stop them... I've always had trouble speaking up about that sort of thing, and I guess I just need to steel myself more then, huh?
I think we've all just let DD down in this case. :/

But at least I think everyone will get their butts in line, and chat will be back to its former glory soon.

**Kathy Li** · August 24, 2007, 08:42:50 PM

Well, my favorite tactic is to deflect. I tend to try changing the subject--saying something to get everybody talking about something that's appropriate. Direct confrontation isn't for everyone. Failing change-of-subject, I tend to fall into long-winded explanations, trying not to lay blame.

It doesn't have to be pistols for two and breakfast for one. [grin]

The whole point is to keep the place pleasant and friendly. As I've said before, if you can do it with humor, making everybody laugh at what's gone before while changing attitudes, that's the hardest and highest road.

Guilt tripping, nagging, and fighting are a lot lower down on the scale...

Announcement

We're going to close down chat

We're going to close down chat

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