We're going to close down chat

[Diane Duane]

Originally posted by EricG1793:

Lee said that she'd be closing the chat "unless we start seeing some immediate changes in behaviour." But by closing the chat, how can we prove ourselves responsible and worthy to use it when there isn't a mod present?

Well, one of the things Lee suggested was this:

Those of you who have been in chat recently, and may think that your behaviour has contributed to the present situation... this would probably be the time to privately message DD and let her know you're committed to starting to behave yourselves.

To date I have had exactly two messages from anyone who even thinks they might have been involved. And general cries of "OMGWTF!111!1!!" , "Nobody told me what we were doing was against the ToS!", and "Why did you ban so-and-so, lots of other people should have been banned too! (but not me of course...)" are leaving me distinctly underwhelmed. Apparently the mod staff and I have seriously overestimated people's ability / willingness to step up and say "I screwed up: I'm sorry."

And those of you who've suddenly found (as of the last night when chat was in operation) that you couldn't get in: has it occurred to you that your behavior had something to do with chat being shut down? Think hard, now. Before I ask the mods to start publishing the most offending / offensive chunks of recent transcript.

I have a responsibility to make sure that the chat that takes place here is safe and clean, people. If you can't understand that, if you can't manage yourselves, and police yourselves, then there will be no chat on this site except when I or the mods are in it. I have better things to do than leave myself open to career-destroying lawsuits just because some of you are mistaking this for some kind of public utility or corporate site where you can act whatever way you please.

[Diane Duane]

Originally posted by EricG1793:
This... is... all... MY...fault.

(eyeroll) No it's not, so cut it out.

[Rubywolf]

*thinks back to chat room memories* Ummm, I don't think I did anything bad, but just in case.....



I'M SORRY! Please accept my humble apologies for the dying race, the persecuted and wierd teenagers. We honestly try to behave ourselves, but, well, think of us as overgrown eight-year-olds with a knowledge of adult language. Or, you can think of us as overgrown apes. (Why is the teenager the dying race, you may ask. I'll answer: I don't know. It sounds cool, like the last race of unicorns. Or the last race of dragons. You know, COOL.)
Perhaps I should shut up. In fact, I think I will. Anyway, I'm sorry for our behavior. Please accept my apologies, even if it doesn't mean you'll jump up from your easy chair and allow us chat. In fact, please DON'T. We don't deserve chat right now.

[Tiamat]

Well, it's all our faults, really.


Maybe, if DD decides to open it again, we can talk a little bit more about books instead...and her books, not just Harry Potter. Heh. ^^'

Well, know that we know, let's do our best to prove we can act in-line. ^.^

[meteorite]

Being Devil's Advocate for a bit...

I have to say I rarely use chat. The only person I saw with any frequency was Tui, because I am in a strange time zone, and sometimes some of the moderators from across the pond . The few times I was there, there seemed to be the same 3-4 people constantly online. Sometimes they really were up at oh-dark-thirty in the morning, but I think there were a few people who just left chat on as a default setting on their computer, because they would almost never respond, even only to say "Dai!"

Is there really anything we do in chat that can't be accomplished with the Shoutbox and regular thread posts? Are there alternatives that wouldn't run up DD's bills?

[fred22]

Well, I think that we should shut down YW for a month, just so we can realize how much it means to us. I know this has been said a lot, but still. I know I probably messed up a few times along in chat, ok, more than a few. But lately, I felt that chat was going no where, so it hasn't been a priority to enter it. Everyone seems bored, done talking about books, and so we/they resort to idiotic teens. If this doesn't stop, DD could get people going after her for our behavior, and I would rather the site be down and her books to keep going. Hopefully there can be both, but the way things are going, I have a feeling the shutting down of all of yw is not that far out of sight. I wasn't really surprised when I saw that chat was down. After the last month of DD announcing we needed to help pay etc, I had a feeling that she was starting to get fed up with us. And who can blame her? She has tried to be patient, but there is only so much she can put up with.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Tuttle]

Closing down chat, while I don't like that it must be done, is something that if it has to happen, it has to happen. Every chat regular, or even not-so-regular is responsible for this to some degree, and to some degree saying 'well, I didn't go and say really dirty stuff doesn't matter' just makes it worse. I am publicly apologizing here and am going to PM DD as well apologizing for rather than trying to get people to stop, ignoring it, or at times letting it go and joining in to some amount.

I'm all for people going to IRC and talking there, but at the same time I'm afraid of it just getting worse. Lets all prove ourselves and show we can do this; show we can grow up. It is a major privilege to be able to be on a fan forum for a favourite author which she herself is part of and lets keep it that way. Lets not let it get worse and loose us the forum too. And if we can, lets get chat back.

I'm sorry for everything I did, and left undone.

[Slash]

Why dude thats not cool! T-T ... I mean .... well .......... =/ it seems like ever since PM gone you cant handel it? PM would know what to do. and none of this would happen.

[Kathy Li]

It's not that PM would know what to do (actually, if you think about it, he never did do much active quelling in chat). It's that you guys started to rely on PM to be there all the time. That if there was an orange head in the list, then you had to behave. And if there wasn't one, then you didn't. Like drivers who only slow down if they see a cop, irregardless of whether they're really at a safe speed or not.

Also, forgot I replied to this in chat, but not on the board (and here, I speak as Kathy--since that's how I'm being addressed, not as an admin. I hold myself back when I've got the admin hat on):

Originally posted by Snuffleupagus:
I know I said as much to you in chat, Kathy, but there hasn't been a Young Wizards novel released to the general public and a manner that is accessible to the majority of the chatroom members (who don't have access to bank accounts, credit cards, etc. to use Paypal with).

The smug sense of entitlement coming off of this statement just... I'm speechless. No, wait, I'm not. Just because it isn't exactly what you want exactly as you want it, because you aren't spoonfed what you want, the fact that DD regularly puts up her books and short stories as free downloads in HTML and PDF is meaningless because they're not the stories you want, and therefore you're too lazy to think up something new to write about the books?

S'what?!! You don't see JK Rowling putting up an entire novel online for free. And you don't see Harry Potter fans lying low with nothing to say if there's a three year gap between books--heck, they write and publish books about Harry Potter in the gap!

DD has put up The Big Meow chapters, A Wind From the South, "Parting Gifts," bits of the SYWTBAW screenplay, an excerpt from "Theobroma," and the Errantry Concordance, all online for free. (Not to mention in the past Wizcasts, Wizards on Call...) Other fans would kill for their authors to be that generous. Are you are honestly whining to me because you don't get to read WoM right now for free?!!

And as I replied in chat---so it's been two years? So what? I can talk Door books with you any day, and it's been over 10 years since the last one of those. It doesn't stop the LotR fans. It's not the lack of material. It's the devotion, creativity, and willingness to spend energy and time on the part of the fans. Lee's built this board. PM built the timeline. I built the Board and Books FAQs. Garrett compiled the first DD bibliography ever. What have you done for YW fandom, lately?

Ok. I'll go put my admin hat back on and stop waving my arms about and yelling incoherently.

[Snuffleupagus]

I'm sorry if my post came off as whiny or entitled, that wasn't my intention. I had a rather long post written up in reply to yours that addressed specific things you said, but in rereading it, it really just can be summed up in that one sentence. I do appreciate what has been provided for us and if I came off sounding otherwise, that sincerely wasn't how I meant it.

[Reen]

Fare well my dear chat, you will be sorely missed.
Till we meet again, Reen.

PS: I will remember all the good times we had...

....In all seriousness, In the times I've been on the chat, (not that long but still)I didn't see that much misbehavior. Then again, I'm not sure when this may have happened or who may have misbehaved. Also, me being the youngest one who usually types in the chat, I do see some things that other thirteen-year olds who may have less metal maturity, (not being rude, but kid's mind do develop at different rates) may not understand or may find odd. Nothing how ever, that I found truly troubling. Not sure if i'm making sense or if I'm seeming a bit oblivious, but there abit of my view on the matter.

[Kathy Li]

Originally posted by Snuffleupagus:
I'm sorry if my post came off as whiny or entitled, that wasn't my intention. I had a rather long post written up in reply to yours that addressed specific things you said, but in rereading it, it really just can be summed up in that one sentence. I do appreciate what has been provided for us and if I came off sounding otherwise, that sincerely wasn't how I meant it.

I know that you didn't mean to be whiny or entitled. But I'm from an older, harder school. I come from the internet age when it wasn't about instant information gratification but about discussion. I came from the Bay Area '80s computer geeks who were once '60s hippy commune folks, who all feel that stepping up and doing volunteer duty to build things in community is one of the best ways to get things done (cf. the IMdB, Wikipedia, open source software, Larry Wall, etc.).

So, to see someone who's not only NOT contributing, but complaining about how hard it is to contribute when someone else has been throwing all their effort into it... it just rubs me the wrong way.

This is part of the frustration I feel, personally, in that DD has given us so much more than most authors do. Neil Gaiman and George R.R. Martin's messageboards are run by fans. Terry Pratchett's is run by his publisher. They don't show up. They don't talk to their fans personally or directly through the boards or chats.

DD does.

She doesn't have to; it was her choice. A choice that sucks up money and time from a very busy author who's not exactly rolling in excess of either. And so this board can't be run the same way others are because of that choice. What happens here reflects on her in a way that a corporate or fan run board never would. She's trusted us to make sure that this board will be a reward for all of us for those efforts.

You were a longtime regular in chat and you contributed a lot; that's fine. But look at your post count. And consider the quality of each of those posts.

PM and I and Garrett got to be admins not only because of our age and internet experience, but also because we'll step up and contribute. We've proven in the past that we're going to give something to this community; that we're going to help foster it and help it grow. "I will fight to preserve what grows and lives well in its own way; and I will change no object or creature unless its growth and life, or that of the system of which it is a part, are threatened." To these ends, in the practice of my Art, I will consolidate the hell out of multiple posts, I will nag about avatar size and sig length, and I will write FAQs to death. And I will drag out my netiquette soapbox and be unpleasant to friends and give them a nasty shock when I think maybe they need it to see the other side.

The 'net and boards and online discussions are all about meeting people who see things from different POVs. And this is why taking care with the words you choose and how you put them together becomes tantamount. Because if there's one thing I've learned on the 'net it's that if there's a way to misread what someone wrote, sure as shooting, someone's gonna find it.

I agree with your original point: it's more fun and easier to talk about new works than about old (you should read William Hazlitt's essay "On Reading New Books" for some of the most astounding thinking and writing about the subject). But that doesn't mean it's impossible to talk about the older stuff; it's just harder. But it can also be more rewarding for that very reason.

Right now, I'd say that if you miss Cedric, go to the IRC channel--build that into what Cedric was. Take responsibility for it. Own it. Drive it where it should go. Don't just use it and then complain it's not like the old chat. It's the people of the chat that made it a community, not the software. If those same people show up on the channel, you really won't have lost a thing.

[starkruzr]

Right now, I'd say that if you miss Cedric, go to the IRC channel--build that into what Cedric was. Take responsibility for it. Own it. Drive it where it should go. Don't just use it and then complain it's not like the old chat. It's the people of the chat that made it a community, not the software. If those same people show up on the channel, you really won't have lost a thing.

So far, precisely that seems to be happening, which is good, imo.

Also, for the record, it would appear that discussing the Door books would itself be unavoidably a ToS violation. I haven't read them yet (really want to, just haven't seen them in stores), but if DD's Wikipedia entry is accurate, it sounds like there are themes in them that don't lend themselves to discussion in a G-rated chatroom.

[Kathy Li]

Yes, discussing the Door books has to be done carefully. But you can keep away from some of the "hotter" topics, or at least warn younger readers about the books' contents in less-than-ToS-violating terms. Talking about something like the Draconic use of the verb "stiheh" in the Door books vs. the YW greeting of "dai stiheh" for the multiple-minded lifeforms isn't going to be violating the ToS.

And woot! for the IRC channel.

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

Thanks, Rev. Mom -- I didn't feel the need for a sig before, but you just wrote it for me. :-)

(Edit: At that time I made this post, my sig was: '"To these ends, in the practice of my Art, I will consolidate the hell out of multiple posts, I will nag about avatar size and sig length, and I will write FAQs to death. And I will drag out my netiquette soapbox and be unpleasant to friends and give them a nasty shock..."-kli6, 8/27/07')