Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince

[Kat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kaiba4ever:

I agree that Lupin deserves happiness. He's my total favorite character, and I hate the fact that he's lonely and sad, but I just don't like seeing him paired with Tonks. Lupin thinks that Tonks deserves better than him, but I think he deserves better than her.

I guess we'll never agree on this but after all, that is what makes reading books then discussing them so fun. I happen to think that the entire Lupin and Tonks thing was sweet and unexpected but at the same time there were loads of clues.

[Wizardling]

I grow less impressed with the Harry Potter series as it progresses. There are a few things I have trouble with, specifically in Half Blood Prince I had _great_ difficulty accepting such a great wizard as Dumbledore could be vanquished _just_ because he was without a wand. What IS this dependence on wands for certain magic, but not for apparating, apparently? Or if you're a house elf, it seems you don't need a wand for all sorts of magic. But the greatest wizard in the world does??? WTF?

I'm sorry, but there seems little logic or reason in the HP universe. Take, for example, the aiming of spells. Here's this world full of magic, but apparently offensive spells can only be cast in a tight beam in an absolute straight line. You'd think after a few millennia of magical development and spell writing you'd be able to make a decent homing or wide area offensive spell, would you?

Lastly, apparently all a spell is in HP is a few syllables and mental intent??? Could someone please tell me HTH a complex piece of magic is defined from that? And what about spell research? What, do wizards spend there days combining different syllables until they get an interesting result? This just makes no sense to me.

HP IMHO ought to have stayed as short, not so serious children's books like the first three were. Children find it easier to suspend belief and ignore major plot holes and inconsistencies - which HP is full to the brim with. HP feels like a series gone to far and trying to be matured along with the age of Harry. Unfortunately JKR is constrained by the childish (fun and exciting, but simplistic) world of books 1 - 3, and frankly, as a writer - she doesn't seem up to the task of creating a full blown serious YA - adult fantasy world.

Just so I'm not tracked down and beaten to death with heavy hardback copies of HP-THBP by their rabid fans, I'd like to say in closing that I HAVE enjoyed reading every HP book. I was among the very first in New Zealand to legitimately get my hands on HP-TOOTP and HP-THBP, which I finished reading the same day. But I enjoyed the first three lighter, funnier books more. I doubt I'll be first in line for the last HP book in a year or so. It's just getting too silly and disappointing to enjoy. Of course YMMV :-)

[Kat]

*throws hard back of HBP at Wizardling but misses as I can't throw in an exact straight line*

I kind of agree but if you read the books carefully and get etra info from her website you'll see that there is a lot to conter your argument. The greatest truble I have with her books though is that none of them seem to read fiction - all the books ever mentioned are school or spell books or refernce books and none of the kids at Hogwarts ever read for pleause. You'd think Hermy would be going on about the lastest book she had read and trying to get Harry and Ron to read it too. Also I can just see Mr. Weasly reading Austen or another classic Muggle writer as fanesty books because they have absoulty no magic at all...

[Wizardling]

Originally posted by Kat:
*throws hard back of HBP at Wizardling but misses as I can't throw in an exact straight line*

That's ok - I have no co-ordination whatsoever - so it's just as likely a poor throw will hit me as I ineffectually try to duck :-)

I kind of agree but if you read the books carefully and get etra info from her website you'll see that there is a lot to conter your argument.

Mmmmm... maybe. But I don't want to HAVE to read the author's website just to enjoy the books as much as they're meant to be. I was reading YW well before the series was called that, a fifth title seemed likely, or the YW website came into being. I had no trouble filling my imagination with DD's fantastic ideas, friendships and other worlds and alien life in a very realistic way. Aside from a couple minor continuity errors SYWTBAW, DW and HW were a completely accessible and fantastic (in both senses) world that required only my active imagination to participate (but in an unconscious way. It was no effort).

The trouble with JKR's HP books is the increasing conscious effort it takes me to put aside all too obvious plot and logic gaps wider than the grand canyon. My sense of realism, or you could say my bullsh*t'o'meter keeps kicking in, disrupting my imagined version of the story within my mind. That never happened with the YW books or very rarely to not at all with other favourite fiction of mine.

The greatest truble I have with her books though is that none of them seem to read fiction - all the books ever mentioned are school or spell books or refernce books and none of the kids at Hogwarts ever read for pleause. You'd think Hermy would be going on about the lastest book she had read and trying to get Harry and Ron to read it too. Also I can just see Mr. Weasly reading Austen or another classic Muggle writer as fanesty books because they have absoulty no magic at all...

That's funny, but I never thought of that! How odd since I'm such a compulsive bookwork! :-) It is very weird, now you mention it. A total absence of fiction in the HP world. I find that almost a little disturbing, being the bookaholic I am.

Oh well, just another discontinuity in HP that will roll around my mind ruining my enjoyment of the tale. *sigh* Thank goodness for DD, Ursula Le Guin, Terry Pratchett, Peter F. Hamilton, and others.

You know, I think it says something when I can slip more easily into The Discworld than I can HP and Hogwarts :-)

[Kat]

Firstly, although my name is Kat I prefer to spell and pronuce it Earwen. One day I will get it changed, I just can't be botherd right now.

There's still continutiny (sp?) errors in Discworld as Prachett really didn't know anything about the world until the serise grew but I can't really see that many in Rowlings books. The only things that bother me are the absence of fiction and the fact that the magic seems to be a little to easy.
But they are only learing about magic. Don't forget that there has been less and less about the school side of the books as the serise progesses. The concept of Horcurxes didn't get introduced until now so perhaps there are other things about magic that we are yet to learn.

[Gryphon]

Wizardling:
I grow less impressed with the Harry Potter series as it progresses. There are a few things I have trouble with, specifically in Half Blood Prince I had _great_ difficulty accepting such a great wizard as Dumbledore could be vanquished _just_ because he was without a wand. What IS this dependence on wands for certain magic, but not for apparating, apparently? Or if you're a house elf, it seems you don't need a wand for all sorts of magic. But the greatest wizard in the world does??? WTF?

It wasn't the fact that he was without a wand; he was momentarilly crippled by the potion that he was forced to drink. As for the dependence on wands... I suppose some are "swish your wand this way," but most of it is "point at this." Apparation doesn't rely on wands to target as you don't even need to know what direction your destination will be as long as you have an idea of where it is. And besides, it's an irregularity so trivial that if you'll nitpick to that level, you might as well just ditch books all together. :/ Authors aren't perfect. It's just that fans notice things that have slipped the writer because they get the book from a different viewpoint.

Also, there's been some ideas tossed out that part of this may have been planned. As in: Dumbledore isn't really dead, and Snape is a good guy.

As for the aiming, consider the process the "muggles" go through to get to the level they are. Also consider how few inventive wizards there are. Before the HBP, I've never even heard of anyone coming up with spells or being so clever with potions. I get the impression that it's rare.

I understand that you have a lot of problem with how spells work. You have to have a little tolerance as magic isn't something that really happens in real life, therefore cut the author some slack. JKR was never really into magic being complex or original. :/

XD You can read Terry Pratchett and rant about HP's plot?

Earwen:
and the fact that the magic seems to be a little to easy.

That gets to me too. When I look at that, I start to think too deep in on it, also. Such as, I don't understand what's with jobs. There are only so many things that you can't do yourself.

[Wizardling]

Originally posted by Gryphon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wizardling:
I grow less impressed with the Harry Potter series as it progresses. There are a few things I have trouble with, specifically in Half Blood Prince I had _great_ difficulty accepting such a great wizard as Dumbledore could be vanquished _just_ because he was without a wand. What IS this dependence on wands for certain magic, but not for apparating, apparently? Or if you're a house elf, it seems you don't need a wand for all sorts of magic. But the greatest wizard in the world does??? WTF?

It wasn't the fact that he was without a wand; he was momentarilly crippled by the potion that he was forced to drink. As for the dependence on wands...
[snip]
And besides, it's an irregularity so trivial that if you'll nitpick to that level, you might as well just ditch books all together. :/ Authors aren't perfect. It's just that fans notice things that have slipped the writer because they get the book from a different viewpoint. </div>[quote]

It's not that want to nitpick, but I cannot help thinking about these things. A story is either written believably or not HP isn't in my case, YW is. Likewise the Discworld, Earthsea and other well known fantasy novels in my collection.

I understand that you have a lot of problem with how spells work. You have to have a little tolerance as magic isn't something that really happens in real life, therefore cut the author some slack. JKR was never really into magic being complex or original. :/

Which was good for the first three less serious, shorter books. But it fails dismally IMHO in a more mature, serious setup.

XD You can read Terry Pratchett and rant about HP's plot?

A story can be completely fantastical and still not run into my bullsh*t'o'meter. Don't get me wrong - I think HP is a great children's series, but I find it hard to suspend my belief enough as an adult.

[Lisa]

Something Earwen said reminded me. They have school. They have classes. Yet every class is "Divination" "Care of MAGICAL Creatures" "Charms" "Transfiguration" "Potions"...EVERY one of them is magic-related. You're telling me that wizards get by on sixth grade math? Writing skills? World/country/state history? THAT, I cannot believe. It's been a pet peeve of mine since the beginning. For some of these spells, numbers - or words - play a big part (take Arithmancy -- predicting the future based on numbers that coincide with letters).

The no-literature thing bothers me, too. At least now that you point it out. Nothing but textbooks and *shudder* <STRIKE>the stupid git's </STRIKE>erm, Lockheart's autobiographies.

The books they do have seem to have negative connotations. The evil diary, the vicious Monster Book of Monsters, the...supposed...autobiographies, Hogwarts, A History. If they mention a book, then it means they found out the solution to the problem - like the basilisk - or they're spending horrible times looking for the information they need. The one character who enjoys reading (Hermy, of course) is considered a geek, and is disliked by a lot of people.

[Kat]

Lisa - I've noticed that too. JKR offerd some sort of explaintion somewhere. I think it was during the Leaky Caldron interview. Anyway, she said that most young wizards are home educated unless they are muggle born (unless they are a home educated muggle of course). This stops when they go to high school (just calling it high school for the sake of convinince as I think 11 i middle school age in the US and I am refering too all magical schools - not just Hogwarts.) so they don't get much non-magical education past this point. They do get history though - in a sense.
I suppose no fiction - except the works of Jane Austen - are ever perfect.

[Wizardling]

Originally posted by Kat:
Lisa - I've noticed that too. JKR offerd some sort of explaintion somewhere. I think it was during the Leaky Caldron interview. Anyway, she said that most young wizards are home educated unless they are muggle born (unless they are a home educated muggle of course). This stops when they go to high school (just calling it high school for the sake of convinince as I think 11 i middle school age in the US and I am refering too all magical schools - not just Hogwarts.) so they don't get much non-magical education past this point. They do get history though - in a sense.
I suppose no fiction - except the works of Jane Austen - are ever perfect.

Hmm... so JKR's wizards all have only half the standard education Muggles do? Huh. Sounds like a rather silly justification for a major hole in the logic of the HP world, and we're back to the basic point of believable writing - namely that HP isn't very IMHO (and others, it seems). HP is a children's series run out of control, trying to be more than it was or possibly can be (so it seems from JKR's skill of story creation).

I understand errors, inconsistencies and logic gaps creep into anybody's writing. But in the case of HP it's clear no effort was made on the part of the editor to fix these, or at the very least the great many discussed here. So what I'm leaning towards, is a combination of a childish world trying to be fit into a more mature view, plus lax editing.

The funny thing is, you can pick apart other popular stories and find similar problems. The difference, for me anyway, is the number that caught my attention in HP. Still, there's nothing exceptional about this. The extraordinary thing is the popularity HP has earned _despite_ the problems with the storytelling.

[Kat]

[quote]Originally posted by Wizardling:

Originally posted by Kat

IT'S EARWEN! EARWEN, NOT KAT!

Yes, I know I can't complain becuase I haven't asked Lee to change it yet and sorry about shouting but please, please, please don't call me <STRIKE>Kat</STRIKE> or I may have to find out some of the things at Agent M did to people if they called her <STRIKE>Marinebrown1</STRIKE>and do them.

Okay, mini rant over. And I'd just started to think I was sane compared to you lot.

Back to HP. It's werid, but dispite the fact that we have just spent around a page picking Harry Potter to peices, I still really like it. Is anyone else the same.

Also, I'm looking for some new fantasty to read. Any suggestions?

[drea]

That all depends on how dark you want.

I just read Tithe, a modern Tale of Faerie (recommended by amazon, based on my other buys. among them, Wizards Holiday). Freaking awesome, but definitely meant for an older age group. Language, and so on.

As for staying on topic:
I disagree with the whole flawed logic thing. But where I get lost is wouldn't Hogwarts have a tuition, just like any other school? With grants for the Weaseley kids, of course, but you have to understand that even in the US, not everyone goes to college. But people still know stuff. It's just that in the wizarding world, it's different sort of everyday things they have to know.

I don't think it's a storytelling flaw at all. Besides IT'S FICTION. That's like those people that pull apart cartoons, while they're watching them. Forget trying to nitpick everything. Just enjoy the ride.

[Kat]

Drea - thanks for the recomendation but I've already read Tithe (and loved it). I agree it's dark and scary and a bit freaky, but a great novel.

[Peter Murray]

Originally posted by drea:
But where I get lost is wouldn't Hogwarts have a tuition, just like any other school? With grants for the Weaseley kids, of course, but you have to understand that even in the US, not everyone goes to college.

College? Tuition for 11-18 year-olds? It's true that, as far as I know, all UK public schools (not the same as state schools*), which includes all boarding schools, charge fees. But if Hogwarts is the only school in Britain, I'd expect the Ministry to cover these costs, in the same way as the Muggle government pays for state schools here.

* public school = a school anyone can go to if they can pay the fee and satisfy any educational requirements. Distinct from private schools, which originally seem to have only existed long enough for the children of the people who set them up, and which you couldn't buy your way into.

[drea]

Originally posted by Peter Murray:
College? Tuition for 11-18 year-olds? It's true that, as far as I know, all UK public schools (not the same as state schools*), which includes all boarding schools, charge fees. But if Hogwarts is the only school in Britain, I'd expect the Ministry to cover these costs, in the same way as the Muggle government pays for state schools here.

* public school = a school anyone can go to if they can pay the fee and satisfy any educational requirements.

Er, Typo on my part. I meant Private High Schools. But then, I've never had a very clear understanding of the UK school system. Here in the US, which is crazy in many ways, this among them, we go Preschool (optional) for 4-ish year olds, Kindergarten (5ish), 1-8th grade, then High School (4 years, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior), then college is optional, but always something you have to pay for (even state stuff, which btw, in california? ridiculously expensive anyway).

Anyhow, anyplace that you board at, would seem to have some kind of tuition. But then, wasn't there mentioning of Lucius having somehow bought his way onto the school board by his donations. So maybe they run that way + ministry money.