ARG... can't wait any longer

Actually, i don't think Roshaun is 'evil'. I think he's a power. Look at the way he acts compared to Ronan's power and Peach. Both were annoying at times. I think if he's a power, its one we never met or seen before. I think he's new to taking the body of a human, or maybe hes acting that way for anouther reason. In his name theres no mention of him being a wizard, so maybe he's a power. What do u guys think. Have i been sitting out in the sun to long?

" Duct tape, the stuff that holds the universe together."A Wizard Alone by Diane Duane
- Serena

[Agent M]

HE'S NOT A POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Agent~M*

I'm a walking talking dictionary, until you ask me about America.

[Birdhead]

In a nice way... I think you need a sunhat.

Nah, but I disagree. While Ronan and Peach were arrogant, they were arrogant with a sense of good; however offensive they were to you, it was grounded more in (in Ronan's case) being determined not to step around people, but to be utterly, abrasively honest (but he wasn't cruel. He could have been, but he wasn't.); and (in Peach's case) just to be irritating and smart. But you always knew they thought you were important enough to take the trouble being rude to; they were aware of you, and considered your feelings even if they then ignored them!

But they weren't arrogant in the way that Roshaun is: he's offensive because he simply doesn't consider other people worth his considering them, if you take my meaning. He has real problems; I'd place a hefty bet it's because of his upbringing. That said, yes, I still believe he's on the right side. [EDIT: ! I just put wrong instead of right. That's not a hugely different word or anything...]
T

Tuibird in Aotearoa
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Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
Spelling Freak and Typo Queen

[PK]

Well, it's not conclusive, but at least "Maybe he's a Power" is more interesting than "He's irritating, so he must be evil!"

I agree that Ronan and Peach both paid attention and certainly took an interest -- I particularly remember Nita thinking Peach looked worried. On the other hand, Ronan (in a purely human sense) was very capable of being... dismissive; his Senior warned him about falling for the myth of self-sufficiency, and I think this vulnerability was part of why he tended to look down on outsiders to a certain extent. (I can also imagine the brought-home Lone One may have kidded his twin about this at some point, but I have an odd sense of humor. Mind you, Peach's was probably odder....) Anyway, I'm not sure it tended to be initially obvious (at least to those who got in the way of it) that Ronan's irritability and temper were the result of a general internal anger at things being Not Right, aka coexistence with a slightly grumpy Power....

At any rate, if Roshaun were some other Power than the Defender, the personality effects would quite possibly be a bit different. Perhaps he's a host/avatar/incarnation/whathaveyou for a Power with socialization problems.

Okay, we might have seen that one before. Maybe not.

Seriously, I do agree that Roshaun's most probably in for a Learning Experience, as well as that much of his attitude is likely a product of his upbringing. I still think some of it isn't intentionally hurtful any more than Dairine's "vegetarian" comment was meant to traumatize Filif -- there's no reason Roshaun should necessarily know that Dairine's father did his own landscaping, for example, and so at the very least his comment about firing the gardeners (while still rather rude, at least by our standards) was probably not meant to hit as personally as it did.

The Learning Experience is not likely to be a comfortable one, either. I think Ronan IS a reasonable comparison here -- his Ordeal involved saving the lives of invaders (in a very difficult manner), a particular sore point for him. Clearly an intentional challenge, and I'd bet that there were components both of the Lone Power trying to make it harder for him and the Bright Powers wanting him to overcome a particular prejudice! Now, if Roshaun is indeed a wizard and has already passed his Ordeal, it wouldn't be quite the same, but it would make sense for an obvious attitude problem (that is clearly interfering with his ability to get along with other wizards) to be... targeted somehow, likely by both sides in this case too.

On another note, I wonder if Filif would find Kit's attitude toward species that eat humans/humanoids comforting or just really weird?

[Birdhead]

Yeah, I think we'd have come across it. What parallels would s/he have, anyway? Loki? Hel, maybe? (snicker. Well, perfect on the outside...) Apollo? Actually, he was a real snob. Ditto Hercules... he was more of an evil creep than a snob. (He had an excellent PR team.)

I think the key thing in Ronan's personality was the irritation. He was angry, in a general sense, and he just took it out on everyone. With Roshaun there isn't that anger or that irritation; just someone who's really, really easy to dislike. And also, Dairine dosen't have a crush on him, which possibly leaves us with a slightly more neutral impression...
I like your analysis of his Ordeal.

Also, I agree with what you're saying about it not being actively hurtful. However at least Dairine notices and, more importantly, cares when she makes a a mistake... which is tragically lacking in Roshaun. I just want the Learning Experience to get done and fast; he's grating on my nerves.

He's very good for Dairine, though.... introsepction, anyone?

As for Filif- I think the "You go places you shoudln't go" thing is...hmm, too cynical for Filif. He couldn't deal with that; he's too idealistic, like a twelve year old of the really cute, non-nasty variety.
T


Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
Spelling Freak and Typo Queen

[PK]

Actually, after the discussion of the Midgard serpent elsewhere, I was thinking about the Lone Power in the Norse pantheon.... I was thinking for a while that even if you avoid his more fervent partisans, Loki did the rest of them enough good in various stories (and fixed enough of the trouble he caused) that he might not quite fit. Even if I did do a doubletake and crack up at the idea that if he had been Loki to the Defender's Thor, the Lone Power may have given birth to the horse he was riding in SYWTBAW.... Um. Anyway. *grins*

On the other hand, I was rereading The Book of Night with Moon and the Lone One's cat-manifestation seems to show up on both sides from the start -- including helping the other Powers fight the Old Serpent whom she also was... so considering *that*, it occurred to me that apparent chronology is probably loose and that if Loki's worst moment is arguably destroying Baldur the Beautiful, the Lone Power could have been both of them and that story could correspond rather nicely to his line near the end of High Wizardry about how he willingly murdered the part of himself that could have gone back to the light.

Yes, I'm having far too much fun with this, whether it makes any sense or not.

(I don't know about Greek. I wonder if we should have a thread for speculating on assignments of the Powers we've 'met' in different systems/pantheons?)

Part of Roshaun's Learning Experience will probably have to be, as you pointed out, actually noticing when he's just slapped somebody across the face. I definitely get the impression he's been raised to consider himself and his family intrinsically above and apart from others -- you know, considering that, the very fact that he signed up for a program to visit and learn about other cultures with wizards in them is probably a step in the right direction.

Of course, someone else could have signed him up for it, I suppose. (I can see it now. Memo to the Powers from a local Senior: You have conferred wizardry on a prince of my people. I am sure You know what You are doing, and surely You are aware that he needs his snoot removed from the stratosphere before he's likely to do anyone much good. I therefore respectfully request that he be sent somewhere else, away from certain attitude-reinforcing elements of his local social environment, to acquire a clue....")

There definitely isn't the same sense from Roshaun of being generally irritated -- I suspect that sort of grouchiness may be characteristic of the Defender's incarnations, though of course presumably not unique to them. (*pauses for very silly mental image involving whatever the non-physical equivalent would be of chomping someone's ear with her beak back in Timeheart*) Of being aloof, definitely -- but while I'd certainly be amused if he turned out to be in some way the (subjectively) post-Reconfiguration Lone One having lessons on playing well with others, Nita and Kit are evidently going to be busy with a direct manifestation of the Lone Power off on their other planet, and that might be a bit much. (Besides, even if it's generally not been put to favorable purposes, the Lone One may probably be assumed to be familiar with the concept of tact; you'd think It'd be more likely to have problems in the area of remembering to tell allies what it was up to.... *pause* Or relatives. No wonder the Powers are annoyed at Dairine, eh?)

I quite like the idea that Roshaun's good for her in the sense of making her look at herself, yes. Reexamining what she expects, maybe thinking about how she tends to come across -- hm, perhaps more at school than among other wizards or with aliens, in her case? And whatever's actually the case about why he's acting the way he is, I think she's actually doing well with catching herself mid-reaction toward him and taking the attitude that surely he can't be that obnoxious on purpose. (Though this reminds me, regarding the crush thing -- her initial reaction to his picture was "This guy's hot!" -- but I'd say the personality has currently thrown icewater over any inclination to be hormonal.)

I don't know if the Learning Experience will be quick though. I get the impression that Dairine's houseguests are going to be something of a comedy of errors until something really alarming happens....

I also wonder if Filif will get to chat wil Liused. That would be cool. You have a point about Kit's exact philosophy probably not quite working on him, and the way things are set up in the series having to eat other beings to live IS rather disturbing, plant or animal -- but maybe Liused's points about breaking and writing in the rocks, and then being written on, and what she asked Nita about who would read what was written in her body.... And I'm rambling, aren't I?

On a completely random note, Dairine's "Leave the floor!" line -- and the subsequent levitation -- was hysterically funny to me. But it does occur to me to wonder whether the pun actually works in the Speech (and if so, isn't the imprecision rather dangerous, or can you fix it if you aren't in a hurry and being careless, and just what does happen if you pun in the Speech on purpose?) or if Dairine grabbed the wrong translation in her alarm.

[jen26]

You guys are forgetting something. Roshaun is literaly from a different planet. Maybe it's polite to be rude on his planet. Who knows? DD has already introduced the idea that aliens may have different minds, behaviors, and morals. (Example: the veggie guy thinking it's murder to eat veggies.)

Jen26

[PK]

Jen: That's a good point. It definitely seems to be the case that he has not been brought up to be polite in quite the way we'd expect. I suppose it's even possible that he comes from a culture permeated with the not entirely unfamiliar practice of putting things down in order to avoid drawing the attention of envious or spiteful spirits that would attack something that had been complimented -- in which case I suppose the royal family being praised would be a method of absorbing all the bad luck? -- but that particular notion seems... improbable to maintain while using the Speech, somehow.

If Roshaun is being perfectly well behaved for his world, which is possible, I think that teaching him to be a bit more considerate of others' likely reactions to it is probably still a goal, since if he's a wizard he's likely to spend time dealing with people who will find it offensive. The 'lowlife' thing, for example.

(Hm. Though it'd be interesting if it turned out his planet was mostly populated by "people" who were, in fact, "aware in some mode but not quite sentient," and the unpleasantness in the tone was really not intentional.... That might explain his asking whether Spot was sentient! -- Though, on the other hand, that might not be such an odd question for anybody.)

[Birdhead]

*mutters* I hate school. It means I can't devote full attention to the _interesting_ stuff.

The horse thing- I will just mention right now that you have probalems, and leave it at that.

The two-aspects-of-the-LP is something I found really interesting, and just a little mindblowing, in tBoNWM; however my opinions on it are not coherent at the moment (I spent ten minutes trying, and deleted it all because it was pretentious crap, basically, and also didn't make a lot of sense.) so I'll just say I agree with your points, they're really interesting.

And yeah, I think it'd be cool to play Power-spotting!

Love the Senior Memo. "I'm sure You know what You are doing..."... subtext: What the hell are you doing?

Oh yes, the LP is definitely familiar with tact. Actually, stop there, let's look at that.
That's a pretty compelling argument for Roshaun not being any aspect of the LP. In all its previous manifestations, he has been very slick, very subtle, very insidious. Roshaun's out-and-out arrogance just doesn't wash. Sure, Powers change, but it takes them quite a while; and why change what works? The Father of Lies does pretty well being nastily subtle: He doesn't need to be obvious.

"This guy's hot-" Well, yeah, I noticed that, but Dairine's gotten over that. Pretty quickly, to say the least... besides, Dairine just isn't a crush person. *pauses* I take that back. She's definitely a crush person. Huh.

You have a point about Kit's exact philosophy probably not quite working on him, and the way things are set up in the series having to eat other beings to live IS rather disturbing, plant or animal -- but maybe Liused's points about breaking and writing in the rocks, and then being written on, and what she asked Nita about who would read what was written in her body.... And I'm rambling, aren't I?

No you're not. Actually, that's brilliant: for Dairine's exchange wizards, this exchange- for any exchange- is about a Learning Experience. Learning away from home: that's not a new idea, that culture shock can cause you to re-examine yourself and change a lot, especially away from the protective environment of your family. So the Powers want you to take a break: but why waste all that energy only to do one thing? Why not do two? Give two experienced wizards a break and some thinking space, and have another three learn something valuable. Roshaun is learning about Tact (and others); Filif about the Cruel Cruel World (or not; really about stripping away a little of the naivete to have the idealism rise to the top. Plain old idealism is pointless unless it's idealism in the face of odds.) and I have no idea what Sker'ret's LE will be. Poor Sker'ret; he's been rather neglected...
T

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
Spelling Freak and Typo Queen

[PK]

I'm sure Sker'ret will get more attention as soon as he does something more alarming than eat half the contents of the kitchen cabinet. Overall, he seems to have evoked the least distress up to this point; the only thing I can think of is that he may need to learn to know his own strength.

...Then again, just wait until he meets Carmela, who Does Not Like Centipedes.

Dairine is definitely a crush person? Please explain.

Subtext: Yes, exactly!

Roshaun's lack of tact: It does seem to count pretty heavily. Then again, I doubt Ronan's temptation toward isolationism is a characteristic he gets from the Defender, who as far as I can tell has little trouble with teamwork. There seems likely to be a fairly strong effect from the personality and upbringing of the incarnation that isn't entirely due to the essence of the Power -- I think Biddy mentioned not knowing everything a Power normally would, as a result of taking on a mortal body. And if it's one that grows up and has to learn things... I think there'd be a certain culture/nurture effect on the incarnation. Or avatar. I need to figure out how the terms ought to be used in this case before I keep talking, don't I?

There's also the point that the Lone Power's employment of tact so far has usually been in the context of trying to trick people. It may take some practice to get in the habit of using it for constructive purposes. Arhu had definite tact problems in much of tBONWM, and he manifested as the Devastatrix.

Then again, while I came away from that book after first reading with the impression that all four of those cats had been to some degree in Ronan's situation, I'm not sure that's accurate now, so Arhu may not work well as a comparison.

Other points against, however, would be -- again -- that we already HAVE a Lone Power busy under Alaalu, and Roshaun might make one too many. And... well, there's Diane Duane's own mention of how she might have to kill him off if he didn't start cooperating. It seems like a character who was a manifestation of the redeemed Lone Power would have its life or death planned into the plot more than "if." But what do I know?

And there are ways in which the LE would be more satisfying if Roshaun's just a regular mortal... though after giving it some thought I find Ronan's Ordeal rather satisfying....

(I'm being somewhat facetious here: there are several reasons it'd surprise me and/or might not work, but Roshaun-as-LP-incarnation is fun to argue. *looks up at post* Sometimes to argue both sides of. On the other hand, I've been hoping since I knew there were more than three books to SEE some of this "Life in this universe will never have such a friend" business, and whether it's realistic for a Power or not, I'm very entertained by the notion of the Lone One having to learn/relearn how to work WITH people.)

Where would a Power-spotting thread go? In the Miscellaneous Issues forum?

[Birdhead]

Sker'ret: yeah; it's not that we haven't got much of a sense of his personality, it's just that so far his personality is not particularly interesting. he's not spectacularly anything much..

Carmela: Heh. Subtext: Ditto.

Dirine: Although I definitely do not, in no way, see Dairine as being one of those chicks who has crushes every five seconds (like my very dear, but also very silly, friend Claire) she is the kind of girl who'd get one crush, and stick with it, often against her better judgement. Probably because she's so emotional about everything...

*Nods* But Arhu wasn't actually the manifestation of the LP during any aprt of the book until the final confrontation; he wasn't working towards Entropy, I don't think. And while I think that obviously the Powers are influenced by their... avatars, if you like, they are careful to make sure that doesn't get in the way- or anyway, the LP is. Pralaya, anyone? By contrast, the Brighter powers are a bit nicer: they tend to think their avatars need to get their themselves, such as Ronan. (That bit in Abroad when he's fighting the spear, for example.) The LP has his priorities straight: in the event that Roshaun's character was getting in the way of his achieving his goals (as it is, I think, in this case) he'd just supress him.

Actually, if I had to pick a Power to inhabit Roshaun (just for the sake of argument) it would be the Redeemed LP, the Burning Brightly One. Actually, that really works. Like the way Snape's horrible but working for the goodies. Yes, yes, bad comparison....

*nods* Yeah, the killing-him-off thing occurred to me too.

*grins* Ain't it fun to argue? Although I remain conscious of the fact that you're doing a lot better than I am...
T

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
Spelling Freak and Typo Queen

[PK]

Sker'ret: Well, I was thinking more that we haven't been talking about him because he's been neither seriously upset nor upsetting. I'm sure his personality is interesting once he's not being drowned out by the jangling temperaments..... Man, the "Leave the floor!" bit makes me crack up just in memory.

Dairine: Ahhh... Yeah, I can see her being very stubborn about a crush. Though I'd agree that at this point the initial reaction to Roshaun shows all indications of having been... well, exactly what she said. Aesthetic attraction. *g*

Powers, Avatars, and the Variations Therein: Ack!

I'd better elaborate on that. I think I've been dramatically failing to communicate a rather key point somewhere along the line -- having previously maintained vigorously that we didn't have enough evidence to say Roshaun had to be evil, when I suggested his being an avatar for the Lone Power I actually meant the redeemed version. (I thought I said that somewhere, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if I forgot to.) Mind, I'm fully aware we really don't have enough evidence for that, but that's what I've been regarding as a fun possibility. I've been hoping there are plans for the Fairest and Redeemed to turn up in person for quite a while now, see. *grins sheepishly*

I think my babbling about the idea of the Lone Power having to learn or relearn teamwork must really have not made sense without that clarification!

So... um, yeah. I was figuring Arhu's role there involved Her good side, actually -- she was in there fighting alongside the other three (and with rather a notable resemblance to the Defender's methods, at that), after all. I'm still not sure whether the Powers had been... um, lurking?... there until that point or only just showed up, though, so trying to parallel either Ronan or Pralaya (or Logo) may be shaky. (I also think that the paragraph where Rhiow is saying or thinking that the Devastatrix's ambivalence is a recent development as the gods reckon time and in the next sentence that She fought alongside the others against the Old Serpent, and at the same time WAS the Old Serpent, at the beginning of time, may be the single most compact illustraion of why we poor linear beings find the situation confusing. )

From the point of view of the unredeemed LP, Roshaun's remarkable ability to exasperate could be an obstacle... well, either that or he'd be after causing dissonance, ruining the learning experiences for everybody else, and making Dairine ineffective, but I really doubt that's the point... From the perspective of his possibly being inhabited by the redeemed one, though, a LE about getting along with other people (honestly, that is -- existence of tact, constructive employment of it... ) might be good practice for both of them.

Roshaun either hasn't ever learned it, or has only learned it in a limited context that reeeeeallly doesn't translate well elsewhere; the redeemed Lone Power... definitely HAS people-skills but might (or might not, depending on how such things work for Powers) be rather badly out of practice in using them for anything but deception and manipulation.

Still might be one Lone Power too many, though, given whatever It's doing under Alaalu -- sure there were two manifestations in BoNWM, but that might be too much for most books. So I wouldn't say you're being less convincing! (I would, however, say that you're being a lot of fun.)

Hm. And a few questions the excerpts set off, that I'd love getting to discuss...

"It says 'NONINTERVENTIONAL' right there in big letters."

Yes, yes it does. In the Speech, yet. It's also made rather clear, however, that the excursus program has several levels of other purposes to make the energy expenditure worth it. There's the obvious level of its being a cultural learning experience (Nita and Kit discuss 'homework' assignments of a sort, things they're supposed to observe). There is, somewhat intertwined with that, the sort of personalized learning experience we've been discussing for Roshaun and Filif and Dairine (and possibly Sker'ret, Carmela, etc....).

Then there's the line about how "of course, if anything comes up, you take care of it" -- and then the there-are-no-accidents (especially in something the Powers are personally organizing, I suppose) philosophy which leads Dairine to wonder, if her three guests are the answer to something on Earth, what the question was. Interestingly, she doesn't wonder what Nita and Kit might be the answer to on Alaalu.

Maybe she should, considering that on this "NONINTERVENTIONAL" (in big letters) visit to a planet that supposedly needs only one wizard (most of the time; guess it needs three at the moment), they manage to run into the Lone Power. In person. Again!

First question: Stepping back a bit.... Buried somewhere in the list of reasons regarding her attempts to get around and away from authority and situations she's supposed to be deailing with, is one of the dozen Tom doesn't bother to read out something along the lines of "Visiting alien cultures is an area of duty and expertise for this kid, NOT a break or learning experience." (But more technically phrased. Of course the implication is "learn to cope with your own species!" -- and at that, Dairine can apparently 'get along' well enough in a calculated manner; it's being open and genuine she has problems with too sometimes. I imagine Tom still wouldn't read that one in the course of a reprimand anyway. )

And back to Alaalu. (Or on to it, as we haven't actually seen it yet.)

Does the "noninterventional" bit actually qualify as a hint to the question of the Lone One being up to "the good deed of a lifetime -- or is it?"

If there's that much of a question about it, there seem (to me) to be two possibilities. One is that the Lone One is up to no good and being rather successful at hiding it -- possibly even from the Bright Powers, to some degree, unless "noninterventional" does not mean what Nita and Kit are assuming it does, and apparently enough to confuse the kids a bit once they get there. The other is that we've got the redeemed version or a shadow on its way to being redeemed, and the version they meet IS trying to do good -- and is apparently having trouble convincing them of this.

Naturally the most obvious third possibility to me is that I'm misinterpreting the blurb....

And of course....

What the heck IS grenfelzing, anyway?

[PK]

*meeps quietly* Should we be doing this over in the specific forum for Wizard's Holiday? I keep forgetting there is one.

o.k., but theres still something weird about Roshaun's name. It doesn't say he's a wizard. Actually, i think he being on an ordeal could be a great explanation to why it wasn't in his name. Having read the arguments, now i think he's the lp that was reformed in High Wizardry. Oh welll, til the book comes out none of these arguments are going to get anywhere than what all of u have said...I'll just have to wait and see

" Duct tape, the stuff that holds the universe together."A Wizard Alone by Diane Duane
- Serena

[Birdhead]

Hmm... well, we probably could if we really wanted to, and we are flashing spoilers about- but they are only excerpt spoilers..
*shrugs* We can. We could always drag it over to Rysade's "Uh-Oh." That would be the best existing thread... You want?
T

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
Spelling Freak and Typo Queen