Tom & Carl's Relationship

[Trialia]

Wouldn't the sort of parents that would have a problem with that not want their kid reading fantasy? Especialy fantasy which, while certainly not intended that way, could probably be interpreted as anti-christian?

Unfortunately, it isn't necessary to be Christian to be homophobic.

[Silverclaw]

Good point, though they still might find some problems with the series. I still don't think that's the reason though.

[zilvox]

Well.. You have to realize that what Nita thinks doesn't really mean anything..

Just because you think say.. your teacher is out to get you, doesn't mean that it's true

but my teacher IS out to get me!! Once they looked at me funny, just before they covered it with a sneeze

[DameRuth]

Hunh. I haven't been on here in forever, but the promise of AWOM ARCs lured me out of the woodwork, so I thought I'd look around, maybe make a few comments . . .

Anyway, I've been reading the series since I was 13 and the first book came out (you can do the math to realize how old *that* makes me), and I've *always* read Tom and Carl as a couple. Used to give me a giggle now and then (even as a kid): by playing it completely at face value and with no discussion whatsoever, this stealthy bit of (welcome) diversity was being successfully worked into a series aimed at younger readers. Heck, I was and am all in favor of it, but I also totally understand why we'll probably never get an open, in-canon verdict.

*shrugs* As Herself has said, it shouldn't matter, and, so far as enjoying the stories goes, it really doesn't. Just my 2 cents' worth.

[thedrymock]

Wow, I'm surprised there's even debate about this. From the time I first read the books (in high school), I just assumed they were a couple, and was happy to see such a matter-of-fact, not-a-big-deal instance of a gay relationship -- and that it was between mentors for young people, too.

It's true, it really shouldn't matter, because it's not like Tom and Carl's relationship is a key plot point, but I think I'd be sad to find out they weren't intended to be in a relationship...

[Small town]

The thought that they are romantically involved never crossed my mind until now, I always thought that they are best friends. Honestly though can two single guys live together an not be gay??? jeeze >_<

[Nights Mistress]

The thought that they are romantically involved never crossed my mind until now, I always thought that they are best friends. Honestly though can two single guys live together an not be gay??? jeeze >_<

Yes, they can. But they generally don't intermingle their finances, pets and other assorted obligations as Tom and Carl have. If they were "Tom and Carla", would you have a different answer?

[InkSlinger]

You know, when I first read the series it never occurred to me. But as the books went on, and I reread, it did seem rather likely. I think it's just their familiarity with each other that makes it seem like they may have a relationship other than platonic friendship. I like Caitlin's idea that it may be a snapshot of the future.... because I'm definitely a Nita/Kit shipper.

[estar9821]

I never had any inkling that they could be more than just roomies until I saw it come up on another post. Then I found this one.

I really think that they are just roomies.

Something I noticed, that I thought was kind of odd, is that Carl's character is much more defined than Tom. Tom is just kind of....there. Carl has more personality.

[dorotheia]

When I first read through the series, my perceptions were opposite. Yeah, Carl has more "personality." He's wacky and funny and serious. Tom's mostly ironic and serious. So I find that, while Carl provides a lot of the humorous asides, Tom moves the story with his insight. So I wouldn't say that Tom isn't defined; he's got more going on in the inside than he lets show on the out. Carl doesn't seem that deep to me, because he is so ... facetious, and that obscures his depths. Not that he doesn't have them, they're just not apparent.
I've noticed that they often trade themselves out when counseling the wizards. "Carl's left on a business trip." "Tom's gone. How can I help?" So I feel like in every book I get a good look at each. You could probably conjecture a little from the Book of Night With Moon, when Carl disappears.

[Silverclaw]

Personally, I always got the feeling that Carl had some depth behind all the sarcasm. Particurally in DW, I can't remember what scene it was, but it seemed like there was a lot more to Carl than we realized. For some reason, I imagine them being a lot different when they're not around Nita and Kit, Tom being less serious and things like that. (After all, most people act different around kids.)

[Birdhead]

(After all, most people act different around kids.)

Plus when Tom and Carl are around Nita and Kit - or Rhiow & her team in TBONWM - they're working, and they're interacting with their juniors, not their peers. Most people behave pretty differently at work, especially around people of different rank or seniority - it's part of being professional, and Tom and Carl are nothing if not that.

[estar9821]

Carl has a lot more depth than I thought from first impressions. That scene in DW, when Nita called on them because she found out that she would have to kill herself as the Silent One, was when it showed.

I don't mean that Tom isn't smart, it just seems like all he does it give advice. It seems Carl has more sides to his personality, than Tom. Tom's like the moon. We only ever see one face of it, one side of his personality.

[kgirl1992]

Since the first time a read the first book (I w3as under 10), I thought they were more then wizardry partners. I have always been a bit pride centric but they act like a couple that have been together forever, and don't need to be lovey dovey all the time.

look at the facts

1. They live together in a house in the suburbs AKA surrounded by familys not exactly prime bachelor territory

2. Pets, finances, etc. are all shared

3. When we see them they are working so if they are a couple they wouldn't be thinking about that

4. Just little things about how they act towards each other

I'm not advising that people go out and write slash fic about them, but, I think if DD planned them as a romantic couple she should throw us a bone and make it official, and if she doesn't want them as a couple she should give one of them a girl friend!

[FragmentsofReality]

Well, the first time I read the books I'm fairly certain I was about seven or eight years old, and as a result of my age the possibility of Tom and Carl being a couple never even crossed my mind, simply because at that time I was not even aware it was possible for two men to like each other that way. (read: very sheltered childhood) Going back and rereading the books now, I have to say I see them as a couple.

From what I understand, they've been partners for years, possibly decades and faced far more life-threatening situations together than we can possibly know about. They live together, work together, and have allowed their lives to intermingle (shared pets, furniture, knickknacks, etc. as well as swapping out for wizardly duties). In a roundabout way, they've even raised kids together, if all of the young wizards they've guided as Advisories and Seniors count. I'm of the impression that they are each other's 'other half'. Their lives quite literally center around each other. When you've been through as much as they have together, platonic, familial, romantic love - it all starts to blend together, until you simply...love. They may not advertise it, but I don't think they have to. It comes naturally to them, like breathing, something done without conscious thought. Also, even though many wizards are probably more welcoming of the idea of two men together than others due to their exposure to so many alien cultures and species with four or more gendes, wizards are human (and/or humanoid, Rirhait, Demisiv, etc.) too. Even they can be blinded by prejudice, so Tom and Carl may prefer not to be open about their relationship.

That said, this is all my interpretation of the books. I highly doubt whether Diane Duane will ever confirm he truth of the matter or not, partly because of political antagonism, partly because there is a greater appeal to readers simply because of the ambiguity and being allowed to decide or attempt to figure out the matter for themselves. (Although if Jacq's quote on her confirmation was right it would make my day.) Either way, it shouldn't matter - Tom and Carl are still themselves, and if their relationship is romantic or platonic, that's what it is - it's a subtle presence in the books, and honestly I prefer it that way. It's more to imagine on your own. and even if the author confirms or denies, the ultimate truth of what is being read lies in the interpretation of the reader - and every reader will possess a slightly different truth.