The world is changing... bad changes or good?

[spyells]

Originally posted by Elder Math:
I feel i'm the one being misunderstood, and frankly I expected it. That is why I thought the thread might become locked, because although, Spyells, you did not attack anyone directly, you did say basically "We should not respect gay people as they are going to hell" or something that could very easily be taken that way. You say i'm insulting and attacking your book, when basically i'm saying that views coming directly from the book should not be the basis of direct debate.

In fact, Spyells, your statement was very much influencing towards Christianity, and also very manipulative from a religious standpoint. You also posted yours first and then decide to critisize my post after you insulted an entire group of people by saying they should be ostrasized from society due to their mindset. You gave no other reasoning than "my religion said so" and when you were challenged on it, said "this isn't about religion."

I didn't say anything about disrespecting gay people. For crying out loud my best friend is gay and we've been friends for five years. What kind of disrespect am I giving off when we are still extremely close and many of my closes friends are not straight?

You called the book stupid. I considered that a direct attack from you when you didn't even take the time to understand the book. Unless of course I am mistaken and you know the book a great deal.

I was going by it by a religious stand point. I never said anything about being ostracized from society. That is putting words in my mouth.

[EricG1793]

Come on everyone, you're letting the Lone One get to you by arguing so much! Just forget about it and let's get back to the world ending/changing. *Starts snickering because suddenly the idea of having a thread about the world ending seems amusing*

Well anyway.... I just thought of an interesting story.

I have two grandparents left: my dad's dad and my mom's mom. They both live alone in the houses that they've been in for about thirty five years. Now my grandmother is the type that always sees to it that everything is done; she has a huge list on the kitchen door of chores for everybody to do. *Groans at the thought of The List waiting for me when I go there later today to sleep over* And whenever someone comes over, it gets done. If you walk around her house, there is nothing that needs to be done. Such as issues with a faucet; all of the faucets are leak-free and work exactly as they're supposed to. She decided that the driveway was getting ugly and she didn't like the huge puddle in front of her garage door. (I wouldn't either ) So she had the driveway repaved. There was a tree that was continually leaning over more and more over the driveway; she had that cut down and made a nice little patio there. So the point of this is... my grandmother, if there's any problem with the house, she makes sure it gets done and done right. She doesn't sit back and let entropy have its horrible affect on her house; she always battles it to keep her house as perfect as it can be.

My dad's dad is different. He's the type who doesn't want to bother people with his problems. And with his health he can't be doing projects, such as the ones people have been doing for my grandmother, himself. Right now there are so many things that need to be done to that house.... The garage door needs to be replaced (every time it operates I stand ten feet away in case it falls), the carpet on the porch is getting moldy and probably the boards under it are getting rotted out, the stuff in the basement still needs to be moved back in to its usual room after the few inches of water that got in one section of the basement last spring, there's a section in the hallway that needs the wall paper to be replaced after the toilet had been leaking upstairs... you get the idea. He doesn't really know who to ask (meaning which of his sons) to do things like that (it usually falls upon my dad but my dad can't do everything). And he really doesn't want to call and have a professional do these repairs... so every thing's falling apart. Entropy really loves his house.

The moral of these two stories: We CAN slow down entropy. We CAN stop it so early that it's not even noticeable (as shown by my grandmother). But apparently we just don't have the TIME to do these things. I have always questioned the phrase "I don't have time for that" because time is infinite- if we all die time will still go on. Time is a virtual thing, not physical. But anyway, people apparently don't have the opportunity to do projects and slow down entropy- that's why it is getting so bad on our planet.

OK everyone, that's it for my daily world ending speech. Hopefully this will help get things back on track with this thread.

Edited to insert commas here and there; I wouldn't want people suffocating while they read my long speech!

[Frivs]

Oosh..very interesting topic xD

I find religion scary. Seriously, I do. When a book and word of mouth can govern whether people believe someone is going to "Hell" or not, that's scary.

I am not in any way trying to offend anyone by saying this, but I think religion contributes to a very great deal of the problems we have today (_religion_, not faith). Intolerance of homosexuals, intolerance of race, intolerance of other religions, intolerance of ideas. If we were all to follow what some religions truly dictate, the world would be racist, sexist, and generally prejudice against anyone not like themselves.

I find it odd that not praying in school was mentioned as something negative. I do not pray, nor am I religious, but I fail to see how that is a fault in my person. There are many, many people who have committed murders in the name of God. Yet again this is an example of the intolerance and generalizations that spring from blind religion. I have, honestly, been asked "But how do you know right from wrong?" when people found out I wasn't religious. I find it a horrible, horrible thing that the only reason some people choose not to do certain things is from fear of some fiery doom in the next life.

From a scientific point of view (because I do not believe in the Apocalypse in relation to any wrath of God), we need to find a way to get off of this planet unless we want our species to go extinct. Our resources are being used up much too quickly, the atmosphere is dying, and we are literally running out of room for people. Around 50% of our land mass is used for crops and grazing land. We simply are not going to have enough room to both feed and shelter the world's population. Science is incredibly important right now, and yet the USA space program isn't getting the funding it needs, and the teaching of some scientific theories is being outlawed.

From a political standpoint, I think we're at one of our all-time lows. The UN is rapidly losing both support and control. Meanwhile, the USA spends around 200 Billion dollars a year on the war in Iraq. Which I find incredibly stupid.

For those of you who don't realize, there is a war going on in Israel that has been going on for years. The Israelites and the Palestines bomb each other _every_day_. Instead of traffic reports in the morning, they have warnings on where not to go because a bomber helicopter is flying overhead. Why is this happening? Because at the end of WWII the Jews were given back Israel...which was occupied by the Palestines, who had been living there for 2000 years, and were not happy about it. The countries surrounding Israel (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) are all muslim, like the Palestines. Syria and Jordan have never supported Israel, and Israel successfully killed any chance of friendship with Lebanon when they bombed their whole southern half trying to kill a group of terrorists. The USA spends roughly 50 Billion a year keeping Egypt from attacking Isreal, and another 50 Billion just to keep Israel afloat.

Our support of Israel is a major reason why many of the Middle Eastern countries hate the USA. Want proof? Mentioned in most of the infamous "mickey mouse" videos (clips of a children's cartoon in the Middle East where a large mickey-mouse-esque character features) are the words "Kill the Jews!".

So why are we in Iraq, and not Isreal? Beats the heck out of me. It seems to me we are treating the symptom, not the cause. We need to find a way to fix the problem in Israel, and none of our governments seem to be doing it.

Here's another little budget goodie: We spend at least 300 Billion every year on the war and keeping Israel afloat. Guess how much we spend on cancer research? A mere 6 Billion.

It would take roughly 36 Billion dollars to put every 3 and 4 year old in the _WORLD_ into preschool. If we can spend 200 Billion on a war, somebody please explain to me why we can't come up with 36 Billion to give the world's children proper education.

I don't remember who said education is improving, but I don't think it is, at least not in the USA. Education is rapidly being reduced to training -- we are training today's children how to pass a test. Standardized testing, I truly believe, is anti-education. I spent literally weeks on end going over practice packets that unabashedly taught me how I could better "exceed" on my standardized test. Weeks where we could have been reading novels, improving our writing, practicing grammar, applying mathematics to the real world. And now (in my state of AZ) they are including science in the testing, and soon history.

How in the world can you subjectivley test history? Memorization of dates and names? Memorization where there should be discussion, debate, opinions.

This is the problem with the world today. Instead of teaching our children to wonder, and analyze, and form conclusions about why 800 children in the Middle Ages were sent into battle without weapons in the name of God, we have them worry about what exactly that date was. Instead of letting them form their own beliefs about the Higher Powers, we criticize schools because they no longer pray in the classroom. Instead of welcoming them to learn about new ideas, new theories, and form their own opinion, we deny them the right to learn. And perhaps worst of all, perhaps the greatest "sin" we could possibly think of, instead of teaching tolerance and accpetance of our fellow beings, to open their hearts to all of the good people around them, to see the beauty in all of "God's" creations, we teach them to find sin in love.

[spyells]

I agree that the war is dumb. I think that education has gotten worse. In California all we do is get ready for standardized test. In my state we have to take the CAHSEE (California High School Exit Exam). I already passed it because 10th graders are the ones who take it. But all last school year all we did was get ready for that test. I'm not good in math and I admit I only passed the math portion of the exit exam by one point. I don't understand a mortgage on a house, interest, and how to balance a check book. I'm pretty sure my parents will teach me. But, the point I'm trying to make is that the school system should be teaching us how to do these things. It is the school systems job to make sure that we are prepared especially if we want America to stay where we are and not fall to the bottom. It would be nice if we would spend money on getting every 3 and 4 yr.old in the world in preschool. I mean many commercials on television claim that if a child goes to preschool they are more likely to go to college. So why aren't we funding that?

[Elder Math]

Thank you Piper.

I am a very passionate person and have a tendency to let that passion find a way of getting the best of me. You said the point I was trying to say much better than me. I thank you for that, because you did it in a way that wouldn't make anyone angry before they read your point.

I totally agree, and on that point to Spyells. This is the fear generator that I see, when the children of the previous generation end up learning stuff they don't know how to apply to the real world.

That is something I can definitely agree on.

[EricG1793]

Originally posted by Piper:
So why are we in Iraq, and not Isreal? Beats the heck out of me. It seems to me we are treating the symptom, not the cause. We need to find a way to fix the problem in Israel, and none of our governments seem to be doing it.

I would certainly like to know the answer to that as well.

We should be in Israel. I interpret what you're saying as if we sent troops to Israel that we'd be helping Israel, right? Certainly Israel needing help is more important than whatever reason the U.S. president (I know his name but I hate looking at it) is using to keep the soldiers in Iraq. Just to sidetrack a tiny bit here.... The U.S. troops were originally sent to Iraq to capture Sudam Hussein (Did I spell that right?), and Sadam was captured and killed. So that was good; Sudam was a horrible, evil dictator who killed SO many people... but now that he's taken care of, why are our troops still there?

Originally posted by Piper:
I don't remember who said education is improving, but I don't think it is, at least not in the USA.

I said that. The reason I did say that was because there are laws that made sure everybody got equal education, and that every single child has to be educated. That's how it's better. But your points are good; in more ways it is getting worse.

I find it impossible to memorize dates as well. We aren't being taught the concept of things; just thousands of numbers and places.

Originally posted by Spyells:
In California all we do is get ready for standardized test. In my state we have to take the CAHSEE (California High School Exit Exam). I already passed it because 10th graders are the ones who take it. But all last school year all we did was get ready for that test.

Oh, yeah, I certainly understand the situation you have. Same for the Connecticut Mastery Tests. All we do is prepare for the tests; learn how to fill in the bubbles, how to decide which multiple choice answer is correct, how to write a good essay.... The curriculum for Math, Reading, and Science is dictated by the Connecticut Mastery Test, and the laws that the government put on to make the teachers teach certain topics. And say if I'm in seventh grade (which I just got out of, by the way) it's all preparing for eighth grade, and for preparing for high school. Instead of learning about plants, water/air pollution, chemistry etc. we are learning about simple machines, the water cycle, rocks and minerals, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me. That is how education's getting worse.

[EricG1793]

It seems as though the weather has been extremely messed up this year.

Where I am it's there've been more days in the eighties and nineties than I've ever seen. And we're getting less rain- it's been extremely dry. The other day, my neighbor, he's a real nut job and a logger, was burning some brush, stumps and some massive logs, so he lit the fire, and left. Well, my other neighbor saw a ton of smoke in her yard, and she thought that maybe her husband's shop or sawmill was on fire. She went to investigate, and it wasn't her house. She went over to the logger's house, and saw a huge raging fire, ten or fifteen feet high. So she called him a few times, called him again, and he wasn't home! He had lit a fire and left it unattended. So she called the fire department. And the fire department came, and tried to put the fire out, and they couldn't... they had to shuttle water from a lake nearby to put it out. And when the nut job came home... he started screaming, swearing, and peeling out in his driveway like a maniac, because the first person he saw was the other neighbor, who recently called the dog warden because he was letting the dogs roam about the neighborhood unattended, threatening our cats, other dogs, little chidlren, and getting into garbage. So when the nut job saw her, he was very very angry.... But the firemen got the fire out eventually, and he was in big trouble and got fined. Yaaaayyy neighbor for calling the fire department! Although someone else would have, anyway, or else the whole neighborhood would have been burned down because it's been so dry. The weather was just on TV, and all throughout the United States it's eighty degrees or higher today.

And in other areas there is TOO MUCH rain, and it's getting flooded... Also on the weather they were showing footage of floods in Oklahoma (I think it may have been Oklahoma City).

Global warming....

[Elder Math]

Originally posted by EricG1793:
It seems as though the weather has been extremely messed up this year.

Where I am it's there've been more days in the eighties and nineties than I've ever seen. And we're getting less rain- it's been extremely dry. The other day, my neighbor, he's a real nut job and a logger, was burning some brush, stumps and some massive logs, so he lit the fire, and left. Well, my other neighbor saw a ton of smoke in her yard, and she thought that maybe her husband's shop or sawmill was on fire. She went to investigate, and it wasn't her house. She went over to the logger's house, and saw a huge raging fire, ten or fifteen feet high. So she called him a few times, called him again, and he wasn't home! He had lit a fire and left it unattended. So she called the fire department. And the fire department came, and tried to put the fire out, and they couldn't... they had to shuttle water from a lake nearby to put it out. And when the nut job came home... he started screaming, swearing, and peeling out in his driveway like a maniac, because the first person he saw was the other neighbor, who recently called the dog warden because he was letting the dogs roam about the neighborhood unattended, threatening our cats, other dogs, little chidlren, and getting into garbage. So when the nut job saw her, he was very very angry.... But the firemen got the fire out eventually, and he was in big trouble and got fined. Yaaaayyy neighbor for calling the fire department! Although someone else would have, anyway, or else the whole neighborhood would have been burned down because it's been so dry. The weather was just on TV, and all throughout the United States it's eighty degrees or higher today.

And in other areas there is TOO MUCH rain, and it's getting flooded... Also on the weather they were showing footage of floods in Oklahoma (I think it may have been Oklahoma City).

Global warming....

The problem Eric, lies in several areas. We honestly don't know enough about the situation to say "Global Warming" and if we assume it's happening we honestly don't know if we our the major cause of it.

Even today, we are not the major cause of greenhouse gasses. Greenhouse gasses were proven to effect the O-zone long ago, but beyond that, the same gasses we are warned about from things like car emissions are produced more by things like volcanoes and natural occurances. Car emissions and other things we do that cause this kind of pollution only make up 8% of the global amount being shot out, and that is shrinking.

However, this isn't to say that I think the weather isn't wierd. There is no denying that. it's also not logical to immediately make assumptions, one has to do research. From this perspective here are some general thoughts:

1. Global Warming is occuring. We should do what we can to slow it down while finding ways to survive it should it occur. All we have are theories, but some come from evidence that is appealing and might lead to discovering a way to halt it or predict it's effects.

2.The Earth is moving through a natural cycle. If we could find a way to strengthen the O-zone in the polar caps they would take a long time to heal, but would eventually do so. It's also a possibility that they will move, and that other centralized areas will take up the position of polar caps. If this is the case, then the earth will fix itself over time, and we need to be ready to adjust so that we can help the rest of nature along.

Both of these are helped more by education than by fines. Mister "I'm a nut-job with anger issues" probably didn't have anyone get it through to him that he almost killed people. He probably would be less angry, but I understand that people are probably a little scared of him, and don't want to try to talk to someone who would most likely punch them than listen.

He is my first choice for someone who should go to jail. The majority of people in jail today probably don't belong there. The concept of "You did something wrong go to jail" is outdated and bad. It's a major issue as we over crowd our jails with people who are going to go out and repeat there crimes.

There is no one out there teaching people to be better people. There is no real help out of these holes people plant themselves in, as what our systems our designed to do is punish people when they do something bad. If your addicted to a harmful chemical, it's better for you to not be addicted to a harmful chemical than to go to a place where you will be traumatized and want to do that chemical more. The schools are extentions to this problem, as no, kids today are not getting help with how to live, but with tests, and hard data that may or may not help them. Some will naturally figure it out, but what about the ones who need a hand to lead them?

We talk about how it takes a village, but no decisions are really controlled by the village. It's sad. Think about this Eric: Would that nut-job be allowed to stay where he is if it was up to the community? NO! They'd want him out, he is a danger to everyone there, and tries to enforce his point of view through display and violence. That guy does not deserve to be part of your community. The community does not decide the laws or how they work, the community has no say in how punishment should be divied out(shouldn't punishment fit the crime? Why are we using generalities for everything.)

In the end, I think the entire structure of how things is done has become warped. It's hard to say how to fix it, and I honestly worry every day, as things will only build up and get worse. I wish people would look at the situation objectively and use that as a guiding force in change. Change happens whether we want it to or not. It's the only constant in life. If we let change lead us, than it will be a chaotic force that will hurt us. If we use change to grow stronger and better by recognizing it and leading it, than we are the ones who get better.

the lesson has been taught a billion time, lectured even more. When are people going to get it?

[magicalmike]

Sudam was a horrible, evil dictator who killed SO many people... but now that he's taken care of, why are our troops still there?

Because we came in and caused chaos. we got rid of the evil dictator, but if we left now Iraq would fall into greater civil war and chaos. Then if we look at history someone will rise up and lead one side or another to victory, and it will all be good for a couple of years(if that) But eventualy power will corupt that person and we have another evil power crazy dictator on top off Iraq. It is a horible circle of life that is hard to break free of. We have already taken a blow and pulling out will make america look weak to alot of countrys that dont like us. But if we stay good people will just keep dyeing. The sad truth is there will always be fighting and people will always die for useless causes. It's relisations like this that make people hope there is something else out there.

[Elder Math]

Originally posted by magicalmike:

Sudam was a horrible, evil dictator who killed SO many people... but now that he's taken care of, why are our troops still there?

Because we came in and caused chaos. we got rid of the evil dictator, but if we left now Iraq would fall into greater civil war and chaos. Then if we look at history someone will rise up and lead one side or another to victory, and it will all be good for a couple of years(if that) But eventualy power will corupt that person and we have another evil power crazy dictator on top off Iraq. It is a horible circle of life that is hard to break free of. We have already taken a blow and pulling out will make america look weak to alot of countrys that dont like us. But if we stay good people will just keep dyeing. The sad truth is there will always be fighting and people will always die for useless causes. It's relisations like this that make people hope there is something else out there.

This is the reason why so many people opposed the war in the first place. People never realize how scary and complicated a war is until we are in it, and then they conveniently forget how horrible it is.

[spyells]

Global Warming is natural. But humans are speeding up the process. We pollute the air with greenhouse gases emissions. That's why Al Gore had the Live Earth concerts just recently to raise awareness. Global Warming was going to happen but if we don't start to take better care of our world then the harmful affects of this will only get worse.

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Elder Math:
Even today, we are not the major cause of greenhouse gasses. Greenhouse gasses were proven to effect the O-zone long ago, but beyond that, the same gasses we are warned about from things like car emissions are produced more by things like volcanoes and natural occurances. Car emissions and other things we do that cause this kind of pollution only make up 8% of the global amount being shot out, and that is shrinking.

*boggle*

The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4 have increased by 31% and 149% respectively above pre-industrial levels since 1750. These levels are considerably higher than at any time during the last 650,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores. From less direct geological evidence it is believed that CO2 values this high were last attained 20 million years ago.

Elder, are you seriously suggesting that it's completely coincidental that greenhouse gas concentrations have been going up since the Industrial Revolution started??????

[Elder Math]

Originally posted by Garrett Fitzgerald:

Originally posted by Elder Math:
Even today, we are not the major cause of greenhouse gasses. Greenhouse gasses were proven to effect the O-zone long ago, but beyond that, the same gasses we are warned about from things like car emissions are produced more by things like volcanoes and natural occurances. Car emissions and other things we do that cause this kind of pollution only make up 8% of the global amount being shot out, and that is shrinking.

*boggle*

The atmospheric concentrations of CO2 and CH4 have increased by 31% and 149% respectively above pre-industrial levels since 1750. These levels are considerably higher than at any time during the last 650,000 years, the period for which reliable data has been extracted from ice cores. From less direct geological evidence it is believed that CO2 values this high were last attained 20 million years ago.

Elder, are you seriously suggesting that it's completely coincidental that greenhouse gas concentrations have been going up since the Industrial Revolution started??????

Not what I said Garrett. I said that we were a small part of it now. I don't want to track down all the sources for this right now, but i'll edit this later.

Not the major point I'm making anyway though. My point is that by all standards we don't know enough about what's going on. Our projections from where they started to now are not clear enough when you study hard evidence.

Besides...."Global Warming" is happening, period, and something needs to be done. Furthermore I can mention any number of things that have been done that are completely horrible against any more towards stopping it.

For example, the death of the electric car due to tons of legislation banning this type of vehicle from road ways. The continued unobservance of litter laws and polluting of the natural earth around us.

These things are awful and should stop, but laws and steps to stop action exist, and get pushed aside. I find it sad that recently I went to my favorite swimming stop, a natural spring with really clean water, and discovered a rediculous amount of trash had coalesced at it's mouth. It's really sad that people don't feel the need to make a beautiful place like that stay beautiful, but beyond picking up the trash ourselves we can't force them to stop.

In the end, I was saying we need to take some action, but as a whole, we have neglected important research into this field and at best now we have to "guess". That is incredibly sad, as scientists don't have as clear a picture as they could of what gasses cause this, and where alot of it's coming from. I have known of several scientific reports that claimed we are causing a large amount of it, because the increase of population seems to increase the amount of gasses, but makes a point that the emissions from cars is low to what some natural fixtures are capable of.

In the end, I'm saying we need to be smart about this. The first thing we need is rather than trying to force things to happen, we need to get people back into learning for themselves and away from the remote control mindset they seem to be in now.

[EricG1793]

Originally posted by Elder Math:
I find it sad that recently I went to my favorite swimming stop, a natural spring with really clean water, and discovered a rediculous amount of trash had coalesced at it's mouth. It's really sad that people don't feel the need to make a beautiful place like that stay beautiful, but beyond picking up the trash ourselves we can't force them to stop.

That brings back what I said in the first post in this thread:

Once a few days ago my mom, a friend, and I had gone out to a lake that we have always liked. It's in a state forest, and in it they have a rock island. You can take a ten minute hike or so out to the rock island, and when you get there there's a massive rock, right next to the water, and there are a couple places where you can jump off the rock and in to the water. Right next to that big rock, there's a smaller rock that has an incline, where the little kids play there and slide down the rock. And about fifty feet in to the water there's another rock that you can jump off of, where the water's really deep. But the last time we went... there were dozens of older, rowdy teenagers there, dominating all three of the rocks, swearing, singing dirty songs, smoking, littering... that's the last time we are going there. And the water had gotten dirty and kind of smelly. Now, all three of the lakes around, which used to be pristine and clear, and dirty, and in this one's case, dominated by rowdy older teenagers. We don't know where to swim now! And we don't have a pool either.

As I said these (should I call them people?) were indeed littering. This one guy threw a plastic bottle right under a bush. There was a pile of a dozen or so of these bottles and cans. And lately the water has gotten dirtier, it's still fairly clean compared to other lakes around, but it's gotten filthy compared to what it used to be. It smells like that faint dirt/mud type of smell, in the water. Probably because it's overpopulated now, too many people disturbing the sand and splashing like crazy, disturbing the plants farther out.... It's really bad.

I have more to say but I really need to go right now. I'll edit tomorrow morning.

[Rubywolf]

There's a statistic that is scary- Violence in the last decade or so has gone down 30%, but media coverage of violence has gone up 300%. Also, the US uses 25% of the world's resources.