The world is changing... bad changes or good?

[EricG1793]

Originally posted by kli6:

Originally posted by Elder Math:
It's already been stated that greed is a major factor here. People are greedy. Less holidays are taken because companies know it only takes more money to get people to stay and work through them.

Sorry, that's wrong. If people were greedy, they would take every vacation day they've got. And I know several people who were offered more pay and turned it down for better benefits.

I don't know who to agree with. Although I do see more of what Elder Math is talking about, Kathy also brings up a good point. However the second sentence of Kathy's I'm a little bit against, because they'd probably rather be making money than being on vacation spending tons of it. However the third sentence... that probably is because of those people who don't go on vacation much, so have more money that they save, so they don't need more pay, but they save even more by getting better benefits, which is being greedy.

However, Elder Math's last sentence, it seems as though more holidays are being worked now. Because some businesses want to be open while their competitors are not, so more business comes in to them on that holiday.

Once again, I still don't know who to agree with....

[wizy123]

i know im comming a little late but i havent been on in a while but i think that somone starting a topic like this is a really good thing. it helps show people what can be changed or helped but anyway lets get on topic.

umm i remember with the global warming (for some reason its a really popular thing?) every year the temp in the world rises a degree and the water level rasise an in. its interesting.

gang vilolence i have noticed has gotten pretty bad every now and again we have a really bad riot or somthing along thoughs lines but i think that it has calmed down alittle. i go to a school in CA callled Cabrillo. it is suppost to be extreamly violent becase there was a shooting there a few years back, but it is acually is a good school in a bad neighborhood, and like all schools it has its fair share of violece.

the money thing has really gotten bad and it really makes you think about if this keeps going how bad the world can get. i mean money has always been importent or some way that you give somthing to get somthing, but it has gotten really bad. i mean i remember (verry vagly) when gas was only 1.75 a gallon and they were complaining about it being high, but now its like 3 bucks a gallon. its kind of sad if you really think about it.

i think its really sad that people think thats gay people are a curse onto the world. its sad that people cannt just accept them the way they are i mean i can under stand some of the gay people like the ones that totally act like a chick (for guys) even they somtimes creep me out. i have found that a lot of my friends are ether bi, les, or gay, and they feel that they have been treated poorly from people who are suppst to be accepting and i know too many people that have ben kicked out of their oun homes because they wanted their parents to know. it really makes youi think of how the parents can over react on some things and the child in question might have said it a little too...ummm... cocky.

i have one of thoughs familys that only eats together around the holidays and its really sad it totally makes you think about closeness. see i eat by myself at the kitchen table and my parents eat in the living room watching tv. i mean thats how i have always eaten so it doesnt bother me much because i can read at the table but it really makes me sad when i hear other parents eat with their kids. but its ok i9 guess.

now the fact that people are acually getting stupid i myself have run into many things like poles and open doors but that might just be me.

[Dragon Writer]

in response to all the talk about people being afraid, people are ALWAYS being afraid...ever tyime something differnt comes in, throughout history, it's either worshipped or killed. these days people just kill it, and wait to see what happens next....Which REALLY interupts the revolutionary process! (think people with six fingers getting one cut off) and i wonder how they'll manage to react now that people are loosing their thumbs (due to technology, we don't actually need them that mucn anymore, so the human race is apparently loosing them. and in THAT case, you can't just cut off a finger, you have to learn how to cope...)

[mysss]

My head is spinning now and I don't know where to start...

Okay, first, is Leviticus not a group of rules for the ancient Jews and fairly irrelevant today? I mean, the Israelites were a society and had a culture different from our own and so they had different customs. I do not think that a modern Christian should interpret the Bible literally in its entirety; there were reasons to split from Judaism and form another religion. I think the alternate definition of sin previously mentioned here is very sound. The Golden Rule, the supposed most important law of the Old Testament, agrees well with this and makes no mention of such trivial things as food. This said, I cannot presume to know why the laws were included in the Bible, other than perhaps because they went with the histories of the Jews...I may be getting off topic here...

Um, that was the biggest thing noone had mentioned, but I think I wanted to agree with the things about balance. "Out with the old boss, in with the new boss." Looking at history, this holds true, and I even first heard it from my history teacher. I think that there are good and bad people, but the problem is our own complacency. I do not exclude myself from this either.

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

Well, one response to that is given by Matthew 5:17-18:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Another is given by Acts 15:

Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.... But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith...."

After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.... Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood...."

[Elder Math]

Here it is....today I hope I don't anger anyone enough to lock this thread, but I know what i'm going to say has that potential.

Now before I get started, I agree with Kli above. A good argument is made against greed, however several have made points back for it. I don't think the average person is being run by greed now, however. Considering your thoughts on the subject I realize it is "need". This is almost as sad, as the organizations forcing the need are using it for other forms of greed. So class divides get steeper, and more liberties get taken away, because if we don't accept these conditions we lose what we need(or percieve to need, as some have discovered they can survive with less.)and so the lines get drawn further and further apart.

About the bible. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have faith, and believe in a just and powerful god. I believe, myself, in a god in heaven for many reasons. However, accepting the bible at it's word is literally stupid. Very very dumb.

It is like watching Star Wars and accepting that all events in it have happened. And because Star Wars is true, then indeed Battlefield Earth must be true too, and because that is true, then indeed "Plan 9 from outer space" is true as well.

Why is this so? Because if you sit down and read the bible. I mean really read it, like a book, it makes no freaking sense. It contradicts itself, it tells you things you know to be false, and it generally meanders.

In fact it's a pretty sorry read. It's really hard to sit down and just read the bible.

there is a beatles song called imagine. A great song. One of the lyrics in this song, which is somewhat universally accepted says "Imagine there's no religion." There is a reason to hate religion enough to put a lyric like this in a song supposedly about the paradise in someones head.

That reason? It's simple, religion is created out of Dogma. Dogma is the belief that everyone should believe one way due to a document of law held up by nothing but faith. A better description of dogma, from www.dictionary.com is as follows:
"A specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church."

Why is this bad? It's like this, if someone came to you with an issue that you had to think about for days and days, how many people would come up with the same answer as you?

Not anywhere near 100%...in fact, probably not even say 50%. Yet when you walk in a church you are surrounded by people who claim to think with like minds. What a load of bull...these people are pretending and it's obvious. They hurt there own god without realizing it by being blind to thought and free thinking.

You meet people everyday who gather in large droves to quote the bible as fact...in the face of true fact no less!

FACT: We have proven evolution! We have even proven that an animal, or creature can evolve into a different creature. What we haven't proven is that humans evolved from anything else, and that is all we haven't proven.

Compare this to creationism which has no basis in fact whatsoever.

FACT:The bible is against anything that resembles the study of science.

If you actually want to defend this in any way, I can tell you that the majority of witches burned in any of the witch trials claimed not to be witches, and many claimed to be men of science. Furthermore, if you want to attack science then I will simply say this. Science has given more to society than any religion.

FACT: The bible was a book that was compiled by a committee of peers who decided what dead sea scrolls to keep, and what to toss away. If it's the infallible word of god, then how can humans toss it away?

I can go on all day about these things. And ask yourself, would you rather be the incestuous spawn of the rejects of paradise, or the most highly evolved thing on earth? Furthermore, belief in evolution does not hurt your faith one bit once you cut that ridiculous book out of it. It is a perfectly acceptable view that evolution may be god's way to creation, and even acceptable that perhaps the story of genesis is full of a thing called "symbolism"

You see, that means something that represents something, but is not actually that thing. Like a dove representing peace, or a Lion representing Royalty. A lion isn't royalty, and a dove isn't an embodiment of peace, but these things can still symbolize those things.

Furthermore, ask yourself this: If the bible isn't infallible, what was stopping someone from writing into the book "This document is infallible, and shall always forever be the word of god"....God blowing them up?

Does god blow up thieves, rapists, murderers, serial killers, con artists, liars, or cheaters? Have you ever caught someone backstabbing, lying or cheating? Did god blow them up for you?

I'm guessing the answer is no...no, the bible is not an infallible document, and god promised this land to us. If you take the majority of stories in the bible not as the undeniable truth, then you are freed from this mode of thought, and can take an objective look at the stories and ideas presented there. This is the means to finding your own belief as to what god wants you to do...because without doing that, you probably are only meeting the needs of your church.

Am I saying that people who blindly follow the bible are stupid? No! As YR said above, the world has been lead in fear for a long time...i'm saying that people are afraid to walk in a way they feel is more blindly than blindly following some ancient stupid book!

Guess what, after saying all this about that cursed stupid, ugly, disgusting book, i'm still alive. I just insulted the word of God apparently, and I will type to you again tomorrow. The book can be insulted and the book can be re-written.

I recommend reading other thought5, psychology...both Jung and Frued. Theology, all kinds, maybe some other religious books like the Torah, and the Quran. Find what other people said about such things. Study Philosophy, and see what Plato, Socrates, and Nitche said about the world.

In doing so, you can find your faith, your beliefs, and your way to walk in the world, and it won't be anyone elses. When you defend it, you will be defending your own stance, and when you make a statement about what is right or wro ng, you will have reasons for thinking those things are right or wrong beyond "this book told me so!"

The Third Reich comes in the form of a book, and any number of americans followed it religiously...dogmatically. Thank god they don't today!

I believe in a god as written in the bible...I believe that when his name needed to be given he responded with "I am that I am"...I believe most people don't realize that god does not have a name.

Have you ever considered the fact that god doesn't have a name? That's right, his name is not God...that is what he is, he is a "God" and you are a "Human Being"....us calling him god is like me calling you "Human"...in fact going "OH God" is not taking his name in vain as you did not ever use his name.

He has not given it.

I know alot about the bible...I also know alot about neo-paganism, philosophy, theology, The Torah, The Quran, Psychology, but I know that I don't know everything. I look at my beliefs as clay that as the artist I decide how to mold...my life is the perfection of that mold.

Some people are scared to walk this path, but I feel I needed to say something...I'm so tired of it.

I'm tired of people giving up their rights as human beings for almost nothing.

I'm tired of people hurting people who decide to meet love in ways that aren't necessarily accepted by society because of what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of people putting down women over what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of rampant ignorance and fear being the general leaders of the populace.

I'm just so freaking tired of people telling me how right they are without giving me proper evidence that they are. If you want me to believe in what you believe in, then give me a damn good reason why....people have before.

I'm just so tired.

[EricG1793]

Elder Math:

Much of what you're saying is basically about religion... not about the world ending. Although it is nice to hear your opinions about that, it's probably best start a new topic about religion.

However, I do agree with the last few things you said:

I'm tired of people giving up their rights as human beings for almost nothing.

I'm tired of people hurting people who decide to meet love in ways that aren't necessarily accepted by society because of what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of people putting down women over what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of rampant ignorance and fear being the general leaders of the populace.

I'm just so freaking tired of people telling me how right they are without giving me proper evidence that they are. If you want me to believe in what you believe in, then give me a damn good reason why....people have before.

I'm just so tired.

[Elder Math]

Originally posted by EricG1793:
Elder Math:

Much of what you're saying is basically about religion... not about the world ending. Although it is nice to hear your opinions about that, it's probably best start a new topic about religion.

However, I do agree with the last few things you said:

I'm tired of people giving up their rights as human beings for almost nothing.

I'm tired of people hurting people who decide to meet love in ways that aren't necessarily accepted by society because of what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of people putting down women over what some stupid book says.

I'm tired of rampant ignorance and fear being the general leaders of the populace.

I'm just so freaking tired of people telling me how right they are without giving me proper evidence that they are. If you want me to believe in what you believe in, then give me a damn good reason why....people have before.

I'm just so tired.

True and untrue...let me point out that all though you started this, you did so with "the world's changing"...change is not end, and the difference between the two is an important note.

Change is always good, because flux causes people to adapt to there new environment. Even when change is bad obviously new change causes things to fix themselves.

It's the basic rule of evolution.

Anyway, my thoughts on religion play a large role in what I see wrong with this country. I specifically did this because I want a better reason for some of the hatred i've seen RIGHT HERE then "the book says so".

I want people to think, it's my goal in life to make those around me think, not agree. I like debates because they challenge people, and I think that leads to a better world.

One surely has to be careful of not being blinded by their own ideals, and I have allowed this to happen to me in the past. This blocks the change that the universe at large asks you to accept.

People don't like change. I don't think that's natural but people today are less concerned with things like survival, and more interested in trying to settle in one way. This is a very unhealthy mindset, and when people get comfortable where they are they are often territorial and lose respect for that which is different from themselves.

Thus my thoughts play a large part in this discussion.

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

As a followup to my post at the beginning of this thread, I'd like to remind you all of Diane's words on the subject:

There are a lot of things I will not permit in these forums. Most of them can be derived from an understanding of the following statement (and this may sound tautological, but you'd better all take it to heart): the one thing I will not tolerate in here is intolerance....

(b) Religion. This area is potentially even worse than politics for misbehavior, because those in it sometimes roll out the excuse that they're trying to do it "for the other person's good". The same rules apply as for politics, with the additional caveat: I will not have you proselytizing each other. No attempted conversions, no attacking other religions, no "I feel sorry for you because you're going to hell" stuff. From anyone. If you want to pray for each other, fine, but keep it to yourselves (I seem to remember someone stating in one well-known set of docs that you shouldn't pray publicly, like the hypocrites, but do it in private in your room: God'll hear you just fine, you don't have to shout about it...or be seen shouting).

[spyells]

I wasn't talking for anyone else's good. I was answering a question. Censoring and keeping people quite is just as worse as insulting them. You want to know another problem with this world? It's keeping people from hearing what others have to say. Misunderstanding what a person was trying to say. He wanted an answer to a question and I answered it according to the book he insulted. I'm not very happy at the moment. This world will keep getting worse if we can't even talk about the things that make us angry and that we don't agree with. How are we supposed to understand each other and get along like this.

There is something that I found earlier on the internet on Youtube. Once I find the link I'll post it here. This is another reason why one shouldn't be silenced. We don't understand one another as it is.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=49h1x-i830Q

[EricG1793]

Well this thread isn't about religion, anyway, so tenchically Garrett does have the right to say something. And I can see how topics of religion can get out of hand.

On one other community I'm on, there's a thread called about what religion people are. It's been going fine, there's no arguing or anything. Although, again, I DO see how it could get out of hand.

[Elder Math]

I can rephrase what i'm saying without bringing religion or anything else into it.

Thoughts on any given topic should be your own. If you want to say something, you should have a very thought out way of doing so, as what you say will always be picked apart by your audience.

We all have audiences.

I will confess that what I said earlier was almost calculated. I actually personally have no problem with the bible, but I do have a problem with people giving me that is their reasoning.

I did not originally even fall back to religion, and my response was fired out due to other people giving that as a reason for a lot of things I disagreed with on a non-religious level.

Did I tell them i'm angry? I wasn't...I expressed my view exactly as I feel. Exasperated and Tired. If you're going to make a statement that "this is bad", or "this is good" you need a basis to stand behind.

A book written by the wisest man on earth is not a good reference point without the reasoning behind it. I'm suggesting that we actually talk these things out on a non-religious level.

I feel i'm the one being misunderstood, and frankly I expected it. That is why I thought the thread might become locked, because although, Spyells, you did not attack anyone directly, you did say basically "We should not respect gay people as they are going to hell" or something that could very easily be taken that way. You say i'm insulting and attacking your book, when basically i'm saying that views coming directly from the book should not be the basis of direct debate.

Actually, that is the rule posted by DD. I don't want to get you kicked out, but the statement you made, without clarification, sounds alot like a "burning in hell" style message.

I do not want to convert you, I want you to give me a backing for what you say beyond "this book said so". I don't care WHAT book is referenced at that point if you can't give a relative reason behind it.

ANY BOOK! I don't care if it's religious or not. Don't come to me and tell me something is bad without telling me the why's how's and reasoning behind it.

For example, if I come to you and tell you not to eat an apple, and I say "why?", how would you respond? A book said apples were bad? Because I have a bad feeling behind it?

The essence of debate would be "that apple is spoiled" or "that apple is poisoned" and then bringing evidence to show how the apple is spoiled, or poisoned.

You did not do this.

Alot of people did not do this.

The reason I post some sentences as single phrases, aside from paragraphs is because I hope this will bring more light to simple points. It's a simple point that such statements are irrelevant in this conversation.

Again, I have high amounts of respect for the bible. I don't THINK it's the word of god written by his hand, but that is MY view. I request that you don't bring such a reference in a conversation that did not originally intend to do so.

In fact, Spyells, your statement was very much influencing towards Christianity, and also very manipulative from a religious standpoint. You also posted yours first and then decide to critisize my post after you insulted an entire group of people by saying they should be ostrasized from society due to their mindset. You gave no other reasoning than "my religion said so" and when you were challenged on it, said "this isn't about religion."

I can make a blanket statement just like that without getting in trouble. The difference? Mine will be "Killers are bad, and hurt society". Here's the difference, I defend mine by saying "No one wants to die, and thus Killers cause fear to grip the masses. People read about killers and suddenly they are afraid of being killed. The closer the event happened, the more scared they are because the more personal it becomes." These are logic based arguments, because an explanation was forthcoming.

I am not even anti-religious. I ask simply that you leave religion where it belongs and bring thought into discussions elsewhere. I feel that this is probably a perfect acceptable request. if you can do this then I am more than willing to appolagize for my previous disparaging comments as you see fit.

[Kathy Li]

Originally posted by spyells:
Censoring and keeping people quite is just as worse as insulting them.

Errr... no it's not. Not around here. This is not a democracy. This is a benevolent dictatorship. But you don't have a right to post here--it's a privilege. If you prove you don't deserve that privilege by being rude, or abusive, or are proseletizing, or disrespectful, then we can withdraw that privilege or shut the thread down--especially if we feel it's for the good of the board. DD certainly has the last say on what's allowed or isn't: she who pays the piper calls the tune. Ignoring her wishes is, well, not a good thing.

There are other, more appropriate places to go for political or religious debate. This is a board about a series of kids books. How relevant is your posting to that purpose?

I also recommend that you read the post that Garrett linked to. It makes her wishes pretty dang clear.

[Cress]

OK, is it just me or are we getting WAY off topic. This was not a debate about religion and whether or not it is good or evil...unless of course someone wishes to hypothesize that religion has changed either for better or for worse and then tell us how, because this is about how the world is changing.

Actually I think this debate in and of itself is somewhat evident of how the world has changed in a good way. Although we're all getting somewhat miffed at each other, we still manage to have an open, honest conversation about something that is offensive to some people. None of us have personally attacked each other. There are a lot of periods in the past where even a discussion of a controversial topic wouldn't be allowed.

Kudos to us.

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

Bringing it back to the YW-verse:

And so church had become a matter of choice in the years that followed. Sometimes Nita didn't go to church with her mom, and sometimes, for reasons she found hard to describe to herself, she did -- possibly it was exactly because her mother had made it optional. The things she heard in church sometimes seemed exactly right and true to Nita, and sometimes seemed so incredibly stupid and wrong that she was tempted to snicker, except that she knew better.