Christian Symbolism in Deep Wizardry

[Birdhead]

Originally posted by Rysade:

What I like about these books is that all that's taken away. You don't have to be a Beleiver. You KNOW how things work. You're not expected to worship, because that's not what life is about. There is no sacrilige, because you have just as much claim on the universe as the Powers That Be do.

THANK you. Wow. I'm impressed... you just summarised somehting I haven't been able to express,because I didn't realise I thought it... wow...

As to the witchburnings- Well, i actually don't know anything about the mould/fungus/whatever. However, if anyone's read Carl Sagan's The demon haunted world: Science as a Candle in the Dark there's a lot of interesting stuff there...
Gotta go, but I'll put some of it up later...
ka Kite
Tui

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Daily Blonde Moment:
So the other day, I show up at Physics half an hour late. ten minutes later: "What? isn't this Physics? What?" ...seriously....
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!

[Rysade]

Birdhead: Oh, good, I thought you were going to flame me for that...

The witch burning thing can be explained by the Wizard's First Rule (Terry Goodkind):

Ahem...

People are stupid.

Basically that means that when you get a lot of people together, they act in the most absurd, irrational manner. Often that ends in lynching or witch-burning. Like in Men in Black

[Aurora]

Didn't I mention that? Mob psychology? Yeah... one person say something, people copy.

Like I said- an unpleasant mix of factors caused the witch hunts. People were also convinced of the existence of witches with the verse "Thou shalt not allow a witch to live" Exodus 22:18 The 'witches' became their scapegoats.

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"

[Birdhead]

from terry pratchett, again:
"The intelligence quotient of a mob is equal to the squre root of the intelligence of its most stupid member."
-this is not a word for word quote, and I can't remember what it comes from, (except a Watch book. Vimes said it.) but whenever you're talking about mob that quote must be put in.
Ka kite
Tui

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!

[Aurora]

True, true...

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"

[Birdhead]

In that book i mentioned earlier, there was an excerpt from a document written around the time of witchburning by a judge. It was pages long, but summarised, it said:
"Judges are under pressure from princes, who are under pressure from the general public, to convict and punish witches; consequently they are forced to convict on paltry proof. If a woman is convicted of being a witch, she can either admit it, and be executed; or she can deny it, be tortured, eventually confess under torture, and be executed. if, in prison, she acts afraid, because she knows that many women have died and that death is almost inevitable, it is because of her guilty conscience, and she is a witch; if she acts innocent and unafraid, because she knows that she is innocent and so imagines she is safe, she is also a witch, because she acts brazenly innocent to deceive. if she is tortured to a confession, at certain degrees of torture, it is still a free confession."
There was a lot more to it, but it was certainly a frightening document. it was written by, IIRC, a judge who did not want to try witches.
ka kite
Tui

Tuibird in Aotearoa
Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!

[Aurora]

There WERE sensible people then. But they couldn't do anything. That udge was one of them. The trials only ended in the 1700s... I have exact dates SOMEWHERE.... it largely died out with the scientific revolution or whatever ya call it. When people because smart enough to realize that witches could not cast spells, etc etc etc.

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"

[Civi]

This gives me something to think about for a while. Which is why I truly love this forum. Thanks everyone.

-IV-

[Rowen Avalon]

The whole mob psychology thing is so true. Has anyone ever seen the Ash experiment done? It's so strange . . .

For those who haven't, here's how it works: You set up a simple test where people are show cards with vertical lines on them. One card holds a "standard" line to which you compare the three lines of different lengths on the other card. The people participating are supposed to tell you (verbally) which line on the second card is the same as the one on the first. An extremely easy test, neh?

You round up about eight people to participate in the trial. The first seven you let in on the secret of the test: they are supposed to answer roughly half of the cards wrong. The first person will give the wrong answer and the next six are instructed to repeat what he/she says.

Then you bring in the eighth person and line the contestants up and start showing cards. The eighth person will give the same answers that the group gives, right or wrong! This works on 98% of High School students and 80% of college students.

I guess it's a fact of human nature. We are afraid to stand up to the mob. It's easier to go with the crowd and not risk standing up yourself.

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

[Trisha F]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I'm not Christian, but yeah. I don't think it was on purpose, though.

#1 Dolphin Lover=arteangel=Dolhin Lover #1

[Ardub]

Originally posted by Rysade:
Like in _Men in Black_, when Agent K says "A person is smart, People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals."

My favorite version of this sentiment comes from Orson Scott Card's "Xenocide" (#3 in the Ender's Game series) where two non-human species with collective minds are discussing the peculiar nature of humans:

"Individually, human beings are all dolts."
"While collectively ..."
"Collectively, they're a collection of dolts."

:-)

(Incidentally, Mr. Card was at my local bookstore a couple days ago for a Q&A. He seems like a genuinely nice guy.)

Ardub
r:w)

[Darkdna]

YAY! someone else reads the Ender Saga... WOOT! Anyway, I must agree. If you want a good look at a mob in action check out the part where (SPOILER PROTECTION ON!) Most of the town decides to go and burn the forest of the piggies. Great mob physics there...

My heart, my weapon, my money, my tool... Just a simple deck of cards

[--edited to use the spoiler tag. kli]

[greycardigan]

I also have found many symbolisms in the YW series, for which I am grateful as they help me to understand the doctrines I belief in. The themes of power and responsibility to use that power for good, honor, enduring to the end, having courage in the face of your own fears, sacrifice for the good of all, it's just wonderful that such messages have been woven in the story of Nita and Kit, their families and friends. These books are so rich with lessons that both children and adults can apply. I am grateful to DD for having giving us some wonderful things on which to ponder. Reading the YW series has made me a better person, and a better member of the Church I belong to.



I am on errantry and I greet you.

Dai!

[This message was edited by greycardigan on 15 February 2004 at 21:56.]

[illiriam]

Bible Subtext?

Wow, this is going to be a late post...

I feel that if you go looking for themes in most books, you will probably find them. This is not because everything stems from Christianity or its Bible, or even from the Jewish Bible or anything like that. It is because the Bible, all religious texts really, stem from basic themes and lessons from people's lives.
We are taught to be good people, to be kind to others, and even to perform your actions in service to the greater good, as with sacrifice (sacrifice yourself if it will save, or redeem, others). I don't know if any of you watch Bones, but Tempy said something similar to this after Booth told her about the story of Abraham and his son, and immediately, thinking empirically, explained the main theme.
Our stories don't necessarily stem from the Bible in any other fashion than that it is used to explain themes in story form, which is more memorable. I like to think that the Bible reflects our stories and themes, and not the other way around.

(I've enountered some people who fell that some of my views are slightly blasphemous, since I'm Catholic, so I apologize if this offends anyone. I just try to remember that the Bible didn't reach us via FedEx like the latest bestseller, but was written by man, and so, much of it is trying to explain good virtues in a way that the common folks and peasants would understand it back then, and which would catch on in the pagan Rome.)

[Jacq]

This topic had some interesting meanders in it that were fun to read. Thank you for bumping it!

DD already mentioned Lewis (whose Cosmic trilogy is among my favourite books of all time, despite it's religion) but I believe it was Tolkien who said "Just because something is applicable, does not make it allegorical."

Illiriam, there are many interesting articles out there about what social contexts religious rules stem from, and I once took a really incredible geography class that discussed the how the environment may have affected religiousity. (That is, why monotheistic ideas have their birthplace in the harsh middle east - more specifically crossroads areas, as opposed to the pantheistic ideas in India and the Mediterranean.) Great stuff... sadly my enjoyment was somewhat dampened by a quite vocal YE-Creationist that seemed to take offence with everything said. (Why someone enrolled in a geography class if they refuse to acknowledge plate activity and theory of superposition, I'll never know...) That was quite a digression, wow.

And I will make a years-old correction, if I may.

The witch burning thing can be explained by the Wizard's First Rule (Terry Goodkind):
Ahem...
People are stupid.

Wizard's First Rule actually states that "People will believe anything, either because they want it to be true or because they fear it is true."
Usually it amount to the same actions, but a much different rationalization.