Christian Symbolism in Deep Wizardry

[jen26]

Look, remember when you posted stuff on private topics? I wrote back there. Just go to your place, click on private topics. Can't wait!!!!!!!!!1

Jen26

[Caitlin]

i think i speak for all of us when i sat "ok, THAT was interesting" rowen i think you are right about interpreting the stories in different ways. my friend emily, she doesn't have a religion, but she goes to a catholic school (and sits behind me in religion) and she finds some of the stuff that we learn hilarious, because it makes no sense WHATSOEVER. and she's right. like how the catholic church is promoting sexism because males have all the power in the church - she has been able to trace things like the civil war and women's rights movement back to the church, and it MAKES SENSE.
but one again, i digress. i kind of like the idea of sharing power between the deities. you know, like the greek gods. ::all ahil the god of borders:: (cue heaven music "ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh")

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[Rowen Avalon]

I have to disagree with the idea that not offering the priesthood to women promotes sexism. I think this is just silly. My church, the Mormon church, doesn't offer the priesthood to women, but I am perfectly fine with that. I don't think women necessarily need to be the same as men. It's only women who choose to feel inferior who worry about this sort of think, in my opinion.

Anyway, I digress.

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

[Diane Duane]

Originally posted by jen26:
I doubt that D.D. meant to put Christian symbolism in her books 'cuz the whole idea of having many gods is polytheistic and therefore anti-Christian. Right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming that D.D. is Christian, D.D. wouldn't want to mix religion w/ fantasy. I believe that it is coincidental.

I wouldn't assume anything whatsoever about my religion, if I were you.

Besides, even if I were Christian, why wouldn't I want to mix religion with fantasy? C.S. Lewis didn't seem to have too much trouble with that...and he strikes me as both an excellent writer, and extremely Christian.

And come to think of it, what "many gods"? The Powers that Be are specifically stated to be subject to the One. Don't confuse demiurges or archangels with gods. It's also dangerous to assume that polytheism is necessarily anti-Christianity. I know polytheists who don't have any trouble with God, since (from their point of view) God is just one more god, after all, and there's always room for one more...

Also, consider that from some Islamic points of view, Christianity is a polytheistic religion. The Trinity is regarded by some Islamic commentators (on the Qu'ran) as several gods, not one.

See how where you're standing can change the point of view?...

-- DD

[This message was edited by Diane Duane on 20 February 2003 at 1:53.]

[Rowen Avalon]

This is very true. My particular religion could be considered polytheistic, although it's more complicated than that. And why not mix religion and fantasy[] People seem to think that the two are incompatible . . .

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Diane Duane:
I wouldn't assume anything whatsoever about my religion, if I were you.

Then there are those of us who remember you at the '86 con in Boston talking about going to Ireland and using the wrong word for the house of worship...

At least, I think I do. My memory that far back gets a little fuzzy. :-)

[Penelope]

Originally posted by Diane Duane:
And come to think of it, <em>what</em> "many gods"? The Powers that Be are specifically stated to be subject to the One. Don't confuse demiurges or archangels with gods.

Indeed, it's not that far off from Tolkien's Valaquenta, where the angelic powers called the Valar (who have often been called gods by men, it says) are subordinate to Eru, which is Quenya Elvish for One...and Tolkien was a devout Catholic who went to great lengths to keep Middle Earth compatible with his theology.

It's kinda funny - when I first read High Wizardry, as a sheltered li'l Catholic schoolgirl, I loved it but was a little troubled by the pagan-ness of it all. When I re-read the series after getting a little more mature understanding of religion, I was rather surprised by the Christian elements I noticed. Of course the general "sacrificed god" motif appears, oh, just about everywhere, but there are a few things about the Wizardry universe that seem likely to be inspired specifically by Christianity - the conception of Evil as a rebellious angel rather than an equal-and-opposite God in its own right, for one; and, yeah, Deep Wizardry works nicely as a version of the Crucifixion story, particularly if you go with the Christus Victor model that's favored in Eastern Orthodox theology, which doesn't emphasize the payment-for-sin idea so much as Christ as a hero who willingly enters Hell so he can break down the doors from the inside, so to speak.

That's one of the things I really like about the series, actually - that it manages to deal with these Christian themes without alienating non-Christians or coming off as preachy or over-obvious. It's a tough balancing act, and not many writers pull it off...

[Birdhead]

*mutter, grumble* why does everyone think sacrifice is an entirely Christian thing?? *mutters* I dunno, first they think it's Simon form lord of the Flies, now it's Ed, how can I get rid of the Bible before it comes back and it turns out that Faithful from the Alanna quartet is another symbol of Christ...
*grins*OK, OK, I'm going a bit overboard... but, as I've tried to say earlier, I think of the Bible as yet another representation of these themes, as opposed to the themes being Biblical. Was that coherent? Oh, well... I'm tired. Please forgive if i offended because I'm not really thinking straight, so, well, my tact and sensitivity filters are collapsing. Sorry!!
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[Aurora]

It's possible. But, really, I personally think that the god(s) of every religion refer to the same god(s). Yes, I am saying the Islam Allah is another representation of the same God of Christian theology. Polythestic religions could portray many different manifestations of the same gods. I'm not religious, so these are just the ramblings of my mind....

As for Deep Wizardry- its possible. Possible. I'm just glad it wasn't sexist. *hate sexist people...*

Aurora

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"

[Rysade]

[Aurora]

You have a point there, Rysade. And with all the believers power, who knows what could happen?

Right... We do. After the crusades, witch-burnings, etc....

Sad, really.... the majority of the people burned in the witch hunts were christian. Only about 3 or so were real witches(by that, I mean wiccans) and the rest were Christian, I think. Of anywhere from several hundred thousand to several million....

Yes, I know I will be flamed.

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"

[Quill]

Mmm...this is not a flame. I did want to mention, though, that some historians believe that the witch-trial crazes in the 1600s were caused by a particular kind of grain fungus (did I mention this before?). Ergot can cause hallucinations. Some think that consumption of contaminated grain supplies set off the insanity, and that the cause was therefore at least partly physical/chemical.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

[Rowen Avalon]

Originally posted by Rysade:
I like these books because of the way they explain religion. I see most religions as being bloated and self promoting in the worst way. They've become entities, like a corporation, they have goals. They want to grow and expand. It's really impossible to set up a system for a religion that will spread the faith and not get corrupted at the same time. Like communism. It just doesn't work out the way people thought it would.

I have to disagree. I don't think all systems become necessarily corrupted. The best way to ensure that it doesn't become corrupt is to not give people anything in return for speading the organization. If you are receiving something for your work, you may have ulterior motives, but if you are a volunteer, you probably only do it because you believe it. I know that corruption does happen to some organizations (like communism as you mentioned) but I think it's a little pesimistic to say all.

But you know, that's not really the big problem with religion. I think the biggest one is the beleif mechanism's being abused. I went to a youth group once with some christian friends, and I was horrified that they all became somebody completely different than who I knew. I thought it was scary the way they just became all 'reverent' and into it. I felt like asking them: "Is this what your religion is? Coming to a building on the weekend and affirming your beleif in front of all these people? What about all the things your beleifs are ABOUT? You say all these things, but you basically just come here and scream 'We Beleive.'"

Yes, I know people like this. But you have to understand that some religions discourage this knid of practice. For instance, in Mormonism, these people are called "Sunday Mormons" who just want to look good for their peers. This is extremely discouraged and a lot of people actually try to live their beliefs. Have you ever met a person like that?

What I like about these books is that all that's taken away. You don't have to be a Beleiver. You KNOW how things work. You're not expected to worship, because that's not what life is about. There is no sacrilige, because you have just as much claim on the universe as the Powers That Be do.

This is the way that religion should be. Like science. You KNOW it's true, so you don't have to beleive. It's because of science, however, that the organizations promoting this or that religion feel threatened, and the whole thing became about "beleif" instead of "knowing." Strange how science replaced what people "knew" of the world in the early days of civilization. I like religion to be a concrete thing. I think that if there were a supreme being, or supreme beings, they would behave more the way that Mrs. Duane's Powers behave. The physical universe behaves in a logical manner, why would the creator of it not? Why would it be a creators goal to be misunderstood? If there's a 'plan,' then why all the secrecy?

I get the feeling you've had some bad experiences with religions... Actually, I know quite a few people who use "know" when refering to their beliefs. A lot of the arguments you've used don't really apply to a lot of religions. For example, I believe in a logical God. Perfectly logical and just. I don't see anything secretive about the plan that I learn in my religion. I guess my point is that you cannot generalize religion. There's always an exception. (Although why you thing a creator's goal couldn't be misunderstood is beyond me. If we can misinterpret people, how much more might we misinterpret a god, a different type of being from us?)

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

[Rysade]

[Aurora]

The witch trials lasted from the fourteenth century to the sixteenth.

Yes, many of it WAS caused by a drug in the food. I think it was LSD or something, plus the then-unknown mental illness known as 'hysteria' (yes, it exists) Add that to a gullible mob and presto. Plus people's bad hygienes caused by no baths (Isabel of Castilla bragged 2 baths in her life- when she was born and before her marriage. Supposedly a dirty body meant a pious soul. In Europe, this is) which in turn caused a lot of sickness, which were then attributed to the scapegoats- witches. The division of the Roman Catholic Church also created a feeling of mistrust and suspicion.

In other words, it was a bunch of cause and effects that caused the witch-hunts. Religion kind of reinforced it in a way. I COULD explain WHY no baths were taken in Europe but regular the rest of the world, but I won't... Not that I don't want to.

"If you can't find the key to happiness, pick the lock"