Announcement

**Mousey** · January 19, 2008, 04:27:43 PM

Not my personal opinion; SO not my personal opinion, and makes me whimper with suppressed screams of 'NO NO NO YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG!!!'...
<span class="ev_code_WHITE">Tom and Carl... TEH SLASH PAIRING o_0 EBIL... nothing against gay people, but TOM AND CARL ARE SO NOT GAY!</span>
No, really. Some people think that. Okay, I've never read, er, explicit things in that general drection, I HAVE read fanfic that has that. *shiver* So weird...

**Kathy Li** · January 21, 2008, 09:17:10 PM

Mousey, let me just interject a comment that you are so not ready yet for the Door books. Give it another five years before attempting Door Into Fire. Really.

**Frivs** · January 21, 2008, 09:52:15 PM

Mousey -- Well, it makes sense to me :/ Just the way they act together...like an old married couple lol...seems to indicate there is something there. But I wasn't necessarily talking about T/C as in Tom/Carl shipping, just as in Tom and Carl info in general.

Kli -- lol, I must find these books! :P And I cannot figure out how I managed to post this in the FanArt forum....any way you could swap it over to Misc Discussion?? *puppy eyes*

**wolf_wizard** · January 21, 2008, 10:04:56 PM

At first I was entirely confused at what Mousey was talking about... now I think that i have the general idea. I kind of doubt that there is any shipping between Tom/Carl, though I don't really delve into their details in the YW series as much as I suppose i should. I think that there is something more than just a wizardry partenership... it leads you to wonder how they have managed to stay together 9as wizardry parteners) for so long... i mean, it's apparent that they have a REALLY good friendship... I wish DD would tell us more; see? you've gotten me interested now... oh well. *retreats into den to get sleep, as it is to late to be up and posting...*

**Kathy Li** · January 22, 2008, 12:17:09 AM

Ok, it's moved. (Right. That's what I was going to do before I got distracted by posting.) And I'd like to caution those for whom this is a brand new idea that Tom & Carl might be possibly more than just friends and colleagues and are eager to discuss it to death, please take the time to work your way through this thread and consider whether you really have anything new to add to the discussion. Trust me, some of us have seen it all before.

Piper, if you need the Door book titles and a basic description, check out the Book FAQ.

**Frivs** · January 22, 2008, 05:49:08 PM

rofl, why lookee, that's my thread too! XD

Thanks Kli luff, really wasn't intending to start another relationship thread lol. And for the move as well *snugs* Oooo linkage!

**Fox** · January 26, 2008, 04:16:38 AM

Originally posted by kli6:
Mousey, let me just interject a comment that you are so not ready yet for the Door books. Give it another five years before attempting Door Into Fire. Really.

Oh I think those books are great, Me and PM always talked about waiting for the last book to come out i thought i had been waiting a long time till he told me how long he had been waiting for

Tom and Carl. I think there are many possibilites of their relationship. But i would rather think that they are a couple. But why should that be a problem? Oh well, have a nice weekend everyone xx

**Birdhead** · January 26, 2008, 05:40:32 AM

But Kathy, when you link to that thread you make me want to go and comment in depth and with no little silliness on all four pages. And one, it's closed, and two, I'm pretty sure I'd be repeating a whole lot of stuff I've said before. It just makes it difficult to resist.

But to get back on topic. Or actually, to derail slightly. What I found interesting about the original post was this:

Dairine and Roshaun had been practicing wizardry for comparatively a longer period before they became partners.

Now, the stuff we've had in canon about partners is very broad and interesting (and I'd probably add to your list a note about Annie and the fact that her early partnership eventually dissolved as they moved on - perhaps because of Annie's marriage & subsequent divorce?) But, see: Dairine and Roshaun. I think they're friends and close and have that flirty thing (even though Dairine's... you know. Wee.) But partners? Maybe I'm misremembering W@W. But what we see of Nita and Kit's partnership is not really a relationship where one of them goes off on their own to save the galaxy. I mean, they have other interests and stuff, but when it comes to the major workings, not only do Nita and Kit prefer to work together, everything seems to go much better when they do (See: the entirety of SYWTBAW, also Kit entering the song in DW, Kit showing up to help Nita out in AWAb, and most tellingly of course Dilemma and Alone.) I can see Nita or Kit going off and attempting to save the galaxy, including the other half; I just can't see them succeeding very well.

Their wizardries are intertwined and, at the moment, balance each other especially well. (At first it was a simple fill-in-the-gaps: Nita's good with living things, Kit with mechanical. Yin and yang.) However, as the series develops their skill sets begin to shift: the things that make their wizardries more effective together are not especially complementary talents, but complementary personalities and... mindsets, or perspectives.

Now, as for Dairine and Roshaun. They're worked together in DW and, as I said, they're close - but we haven't had a lot of evidence of them as partners-in-wizardry and, I think, we won't for a book or two yet, if indeed we ever do. Personally, much as I liked Dairine and Roshaun, I'm not sure their talents as especially compatible; neither of them have the gift of self-reflection and, well, they both need it! Especially in their wizardry, you know? Maybe as a personality/friendship/romance thing they could work, but as a partnership? I'm not sure. But anyway, I don't have to approve of something for it to be fact, I just don't see it in current canon. Explain! And then maybe I will.

And to actually bring this back to topic... this has to reflect interestingly on Tom and Carl's partnership, which we see in such a different context, totally externally. We only know a limited amount about their wizardly talents and to an extent even our knowledge about their personality is limited. Tom's particularly skilled at writing spells, especially the persuasive kind. Carl sells time, in his dayjob too (my personal tidbit of Tom/Carl canon is that they probably met in the television industry at some point, since Tom has written for television and that's where Carl works too - I mean, I can't imagine them having personal business contact, but at, I don't know, a mixer.)

Selling time and spell writing aren't naturally linked, which suggests it's more like the later, interdependant version of Nita and Kit's partnership. (Which, side note, is derived from their closeness not only in wizardry but as friends.) Tom and Carl are obviously super-close (even if you think they're just best friends, although I challenge you to live in a house with your best friend and a lot of dogs for more than, oh, a year... but never mind that: it has been done and I suppose there's no particular reason why Tom and Carl couldn't be doing it.) They have a charmingly domestic friendship and good humour. They are kind and friendly and good (and good-looking!) and wise and, seriously, I love Tom and Carl a lot (like, a LOT) but sometimes seeing through Nita's blinding affection and admiration is a little difficult, which means that it's hard to get a clear picture of why their personalities would blend for good wizardry.

But! We do know some good bits about them (other than the bare facts as outlined in HW). The scene on the moon in HW, Tom says something to Nita about her spell being very neat, and "Carl's been corrupting you, I see." I read this as implying that Carl's spellwork is typically very structured (and Tom's isn't?) which makes such an interesting juxtaposition with Carl's flirtations with DIY wiring, where his work seems... um... slapdash? Carl seems to be more intense than Tom (DW, for example; also the faaaabulous scene with not!Dairine, which I love; so threatening. Tom and Carl just aren't threatening people so I love the glimpse of that.) while Tom tends to remain unruffledly ironic. (Which, let me tell you, unruffled is not a word you could use to describe me when my power goes off. There are ruffles. Maybe even ruffs.) Maybe there's an element of balance there: Carl is more extroverted and ebulliant, Tom more reserved.

Blah blah, I'm getting to the stage where I use commas instead of.. wow, that word which I've forgotten which is the class of words, like and or but, which link clauses. This is incomprehensible so I'll stop, but believe me, I could talk some more about Tom and Carl, if you'd like.

ETA: holy moly, it's a novel! Also, lots of parentheses. Dear Nathan, you have permanently affected my writing style and the people who read my essays don't known you're to blame! *passes the buck*

**Frivs** · January 27, 2008, 08:55:37 PM

rofl, I've been known to write just as much Birdhead, no worries, I enjoy it! And commas happen to be my favorite punctuation mark....drives my AP English teacher insane

Apparantly we're reading WaW completely differently xD It seemed to me that that was what DD was building -- a wizarding partnership. There are many moments throughout WaW where Ro and Dair mention the fact that they can hear each other's thoughts and feel each other's emotions, which is how Kit and Nita's relationship started. Roshaun even mentions at some point that those are signs, although I don't have the exact quote right now. I'm almost certain it's when they're on the Motherboard.

When you look at the time span of the two books, they're really only together for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, so they obviously haven't had time to build the kind of relationship Nita and Kit have together. Their partnership was just in the beginning stages at the end of WaW when Ro disappeared (*sobs*).

There again, since we don't see very many kinds of partners, we don't know if they all work like Tom/Carl, Nita/Kit...very balanced (yin and yang was a perfect example). I actually think there's an arguement for the fact that Dairine and Ro DO balance each other -- while Roshaun is forced to keep his thoughts to himself, and is generally "putting on a show", Dairine generally says whatever is on her mind. I think in that respect they have a lot to teach each other about handling situations.

Okies, back to Tom and Carl lol. What you said about living with your best friend for long periods of time is exactly why I think there's more than a friendship there, but I'll stop with that strand XD

I think you said better what I was attempting and failing to get across, that what we see of T/C is only from Nita/Kit/Dair's perspective, so we don't have any insight into them and their true personalities like we do the other characters. We never get an "inside their head" look. I really wish DD would do a T/C centric story at some point...short story even! Pleeeasse? *_* hehe

That's a very good thought about them meeting at a business place...I like the idea of them meeting when they were young, like Nita and Kit, but there again there's no hint. Keeping a list of questions for the next chat xD

That's basically the picture I get of the two of them...Carl is very outgoing, passionate, but I also keep getting hints of something deeper about him....especially in the scene in DW where he tells Nita about the thing "worse than death", and it says his eyes "close over". That to me sounds like there have been some deep experiences in his life. I think Tom is his constant, more down-to-earth than Carl, but I can also see Tom being a lot more...out-of-the-box when there aren't kids around. I could see him as the type that would cool things down around his "students".

And I missed that scene!!! *goes off to search more carefully in HW*

**wizardsrreal** · February 19, 2009, 10:00:38 PM

I personally would hate the idea of Tom and Carl being a couple. Not that I have anything against gay people but I've just never though about them like that so it just seems so weird and out of place to me. I might have thought of it the first time i read the books but it was just a passing though, nothing i cared to explore more for myself because i feel like it would make things akward for me after finding out that they were a couple when i never thought they would be.

**Jacq** · February 19, 2009, 10:51:02 PM

Regarding the thread linked earlier:

Wizard's Manual error: cannot find page

The page you have requested is not available in the Manual at the moment.

This may be due to a change in access authorization requirements, ongoing revisions of the pertinent material, or temporary aberrations in the local time-space continuum. There is also the possibility that the new sysadmin the Powers that Be just hired is on Its coffee break. Again.

How sad.

I will say that from the beginning I assumed Tom and Carl were a couple. But upon further speculation, this is how I would justify it:
There is so very much balance where Wizardry and The Lone Power is involved. It always seems that awful things are balanced with good thing (out of a million in-book examples, I'll point to the sacrifice of the Twelvesong in DW and the reconnection of Arhu and his sister, just to name a few.) Wizardry can be a very lonely sort of business, especially for humans, and loneliness and the aching sadness that is sometimes a part of that is, when you get right down to it, a little bit of Entropy. If pretty much all things in wizardry have a reason, it would make sense to me that Tom and Carl didn't stumble upon each other by chance, but that Someone noticed their compatibility and gave chance a bit of a push.

Personally, I always assumed they met later, perhaps early on in their careers as advisories (there's not many wizards in the world, so when you get into the management positions your circle of magical friends that also share your species is probably pretty small). Somewhere in the books I recall reading that the higher up you got in the echelon, the less actual fieldwork you have to do. If this is the case, then it wouldn't be absolutely crucial for Tom and Carl to have the same sort of compatibility in terms of speciality that the younger wizards need. What they lack in raw ability they can make up for with experience, I think.

I mean, I'm not saying there's a 100% chance they're gay, nor that if they were they... er, would have to be exclusive to each other, if you know what I mean. But Love very much demands understanding on some level. I can't remember, do the books mention anything about wizards hooking up with nonwizards and forming life-partnerships? It seems unlikely to me, since the whole "not seeing what's under your nose" thing would put a huge barrier up in terms of communication and understanding.

</two cents>

**SpacePen** · February 20, 2009, 06:13:43 AM

I would be interested in a little backstory on Tom and Carl too.

I think we don't get it in the books because the main characters are basically kids. For the most part, children don't see a lot of adults relating to adults (except for their own parents) because

1) they're more interested in how people relate to them: either other children relating to them as friends/peers/enemies or other adults relating to them as teachers/authorities of varying levels, even if just "an authority on life because they're older". A child of Nita and Kit's age is only beginning to understand what it might mean to relate to another adult AS another adult. Any chance they have to see adults relating to one another is "not interesting" - talking heads on the tv news, snippets of conversation heard from "the kids' table" at large family gatherings or at parties - even religious services tend to segregate the children from the adults. Most of a child's day at school is spent relating to a class of their age with a few authorities in charge of teaching, lecturing, overseeing, tutoring, etc. These adults primarily relate to the kids, and don't spend a lot of time in conversation with one another during school hours (except perhaps in the off limits to kids "teacher's lounge")

2) Most adults (who are not family members or guardians living in the same house as the children) tend not to engage in a lot of relating to other adults when children are present as guests. In tom and carl's case, Nita and Kit don't ever "hang out" at their house: nor do Tom and Carl "hang out" with Nita and Kit. They hardly ever see one another outside of business matters. Half the things they do on errantry are probably over nita and kit's heads or classified in some way or other and the things they do tell the young wizards that they are Seniors over probably all have direct pertinence to whatever the wizard is working on at the moment.

**Nights Mistress** · April 14, 2009, 05:35:57 AM

One of the things I find interesting about Tom and Carl is that it pretty much runs us up against our own inherent heteronormativity. It's interesting because there's not a lot in the text that says either way. I'd argue that there's a fair amount of subtext to suggest that they are in a relationship. Apart from the little incidental things (they share pets, presumably bills etc etc) the interesting thing for me is that they share a house. At their age, that's rather uncommon, as I assume that they bought the house as joint owners -- a pretty unusual arrangement for someone who isn't in a de facto relationship, if not married, at their age!

That said, I'd be pretty skeptical if we ever saw anything about that because it's largely irrelevant to how they interact with Nita and Kit. They don't interact with her as her guide into sexuality, but instead into wizardry. It's honestly largely irrelevant to Nita's journey into adulthood whether her mentors are secretly having fun in the bedroom.

Tangentially, I've always wondered whether they are out, but only to the adults, and that's why their house was referred to Crazy Man Swales' in the first book. The kids don't really know why their parents have this View about them, but assume that it's something weird and that they're crazy.

**dorotheia** · April 14, 2009, 04:32:55 PM

Hmmm, I always thought the house was called that because of the wizardry. The unexplained loud bangs and strange noises that slip out accidentally. It could also be that Tom and Carl set up something for convenience's sake and just let the nonwizards make up their own explanations. I think several times during the book there's been mentions of spells that keep nonwizards from interfering with a spell, or just push them to avoid a certain place; maybe their reputation is one of those effects.
Interesting theory, though, Nights Mistress.

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Tom and Carl...some missing pieces

Tom and Carl...some missing pieces

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