Tom & Carl's Relationship

[LifeSong]

I can see how DD wouldn't want to make it official in the books. Like FragmentsOfReality said, ambiguity is sometimes more fun. But about the YA thing - I've seen a lot (okay, not a lot, but still several) books in the YA section that deal pretty specifically with homosexuality, so it's not exactly a taboo topic for young adult books. What does 'young adult' exactly mean (age range etc.)?

[Lazy Leopard]

What does 'young adult' exactly mean (age range etc.)?

Wikipedia picks ages 14 to 21, but I think users of the term tend to rely on it being open to interpretation. It's a bit more than just teenage, though.

However, with the Young Wizards stories, it's perfectly reasonable to expect readers to be of an age with the main characters, and that'll stretch the range down to 12, at least, and youger if you start considering Dairine. So while the books generally end up on the "young adult" shelves, they'll probably be read by kids as young as 8 or 9...

[Birdhead]

... it's perfectly reasonable to expect readers to be of an age with the main characters, and that'll stretch the range down to 12, at least, and youger if you start considering Dairine. So while the books generally end up on the "young adult" shelves, they'll probably be read by kids as young as 8 or 9...

And children do generally read "up", i.e. they like to read books with characters a couple years older than they are themselves.

To me the question is not how old are the readers; the question is whether and why we think same-sex relationships ought to be treated differently to heterosexual ones. (You could, mind you, argue that Tom and Carl's relationship is treated pretty similarly to Kit's parents'.) When I was four, I knew my kindy teacher was a lesbian in the same way I knew my best friend's parents were straight - just enough to not be surprised by the gender of the person she lived with. I think it's becoming increasingly indefensible to say that a similar level of knowledge about, for example but not necessarily specifically, Tom and Carl, is problematic for twelve year olds, for eight year olds, for four year olds. I mean, Glee is running on Fox. If it's good enough for Fox, it's good enough for Middle America. Surely. (DD may very well have other reasons to do things differently in this specific case, mind you. I'm speaking generally.)

[RK12]

Personally, I started reading the series when I was in high school. Upon reading them again for a new release, I was surprised that they hadn't come out. Somehow my mind had wrote a scene where Kit and Nita came back from dealing with the Lone Power at the end of one of the first couple books. Tom and Carl was talking to Nita's mom about how they themselves were together and Nita and Kit overheard and told them it didn't matter. And everyone was supportive and Tom and Carl were left feeling a bit silly how they thought they would care.

It was just my mind though. I am gay/lesbian so perhaps my teenage mind was overly hopeful. But honestly, I do think they are a couple.

One thing that will be interesting now will be if Tom and Carl will offer support about wizards in a relationship and the effect it could have now that Kit and Nita got together in AWOM? I really want Games Wizards Play now to see if anything is mentioned.

And when New York passed same-sex marriage a earlier this year, my first thoughts were "Yay another state for equal rights!" then my next thought was "Oh gosh! Tom and Carl can get married if they want to!"

[Geekhyena]

One thing that will be interesting now will be if Tom and Carl will offer support about wizards in a relationship and the effect it could have now that Kit and Nita got together in AWOM? I really want Games Wizards Play now to see if anything is mentioned.

And when New York passed same-sex marriage a earlier this year, my first thoughts were "Yay another state for equal rights!" then my next thought was "Oh gosh! Tom and Carl can get married if they want to!"

I first started reading YW when I was in middle school and just coming to terms with the fact that I liked girls and boys. I didn't cotton on to the whole Tom/Carl thing until a bit later, though, and realized it was rather obvious to get that impression. While I'd like to see them come out, I don't think it's necessary for them to be all lovey-dovey. Maybe a peck on the cheek as one of them heads out the door or something. I'd rather have them stay the way they were than be the token gay characters. Given that kids these days often know people who are LGBTQ, it would be nice to see an out gay character, and Tom and Carl are well-established. Plus, they are adorable together and it'd be cute as beans to see them get married ^_^

[LifeSong]

I first read some of the YW books in 6th grade, and then there was about a year-long gap and I started reading them again in 8th grade. The first time I read it, at eleven, I missed any and all subtext between Tom and Carl; when I read it again in 8th, it was rather obvious, to me at least.

In any case, I guess we can't expect it to be made official, but we can always hope

[anotherBob]

Why does it matter? If it was Tom and Carla, would it matter if they were not married? Why the need to bring any kind of romance into the story where ir would just get in the way?

Bob

[LifeSong]

anotherBob -
That's a good point. But I'm a 'shipper by nature, so . . . :P

Which is odd, actually, considering that about a year ago I would adamantly refuse to 'ship' anyone with anyone at all - for some reason I've changed a bit since then.

If it were Tom and Carla I would probably still 'ship them. Just my .02

[Trialia]

Why does it matter? If it was Tom and Carla, would it matter if they were not married? Why the need to bring any kind of romance into the story where ir would just get in the way?

Because gay kids are marginalised enough in most YA fiction without people pushing LGBT romance out of the picture because 'it would get in the way' or treating it like anything less than normal, which frequently happens.

I like the way Diane treats it like no big deal, because that's the way it should be.

[Mitsu101]

I like Tom and Carl's relationship the way it is. I like the fact that two grown and straight men can live together without any romance involved. Don't get me wrong, I'm a romance fiend and love the occassional gay couple, but that thing I would just leave alone. The friendship is special and romance would just kinda turn it into something generic or overdone.

But even at the age of 20, I still don't get the gay vibe from them. Really good friends, brother's almost, but not gay. I mean, if someone pointed out the signs and I agreed, that would be something different. What am I missing? .... If anything.

[burningbright]

I have to say, romance didn't make Nita's or Kit's parents generic or overdone, so I think you may be applying a little bit of a double standard there. And established gay couples in fiction who are treated as totally normal in a not-even-worth-comment way are definitelyhouse

[Mitsu101]

Oh I didn't mean the gay couple thing would be over done! ^^; I would have to agree that it is actually under done. I just mean another romance in the books would be too much. I feel like adding Tom and Carl as another romantic pairing would be too much and distract from the other pairings that we have to give our attention to.

But I guess that could be a legitimate argument as far as the house goes. Though, if I didn't have two perfectly straight co-workers sharing a house together, I would have thought that weird too. Albeit they're renting it, but they still have to pay everything they would usually have to if they had bought it excluding insurance and repairs. And as far as the book goes, I guessed they lived together just because they were partners in magic and magic partners tend to stay together. I know that a majority of them are couples (like Kit/Nita apparently), but she did say that some of them never did turn to romance. That might explain why they never saw other women; they could never make a bond closer than a wizardly partner bond with another person. Like Nita being closer to Ronan than Kit? That would just be weird.

For them being at work, I can see where you are coming from on the affection part. The signs I was more looking for were the small, subtle things that all people in love do (i.e. lingering touch on the arm, special looks, nicknames, even a gentler demeanor towards the other.). Even a hand on the shoulder when Tom and Carl were trying to explain that the universe was ending and they wouldn't be there to help in W@W would have sufficed. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't remember Tom and Carl ever even touching the other in the books in any way, shape, or form. O.o

[Nights Mistress]

I wouldn't necessarily say that renting a property together and having a mortgage were remotely the same thing. Otherwise I'm in a poly relationship with my two flatmates, which I'm sure comes as a surprise to us all. If they have a mortgage, it's a far greater commitment than renting, I can assure you! Renting you can leave after giving a month's notice; a mortgage is a far more binding contractual agreement for a far longer period of time. The reason why "buying a house" with someone is considered to be a serious relationship move is because you are basically stuck paying for the thing for twenty years or so. It's generally considered shorthand for "this is a romantic relationship and we are serious about our commitment to each other". The part where they share pets and the utilities and have done for a while suggests that they are pretty much in a long term relationship. It's subtly done, but it's about the same level of subtext as with Kit's parents.

Also, I'm confused - what other pairings do you mean? Isn't it just ... Nita and Kit? I mean, there's arguable subtext for Dairine and Roshaun (though personally I don't see it) but the relationship with Ronan and Carmela is less romantic and more "Ronan runs for the hills whenever she's nearby to the amusement of everyone else around him", which to me doesn't seem that romantic at all! I suppose there's S'reee and her boyfriend, but I don't think too many people are interested in them.

[Mitsu101]

No they are renting in on a two years lease. Leasing for renting houses goes by two years at the min as a general rule around the area I live, but I can see your point.

Though one thing I think we are all assuming though is that they both own the house. What if the title of the house is under one of their names? Not to mention we cannot really assume how long Tom and Carl have been living together. Because if I can remember correctly, in the first book they only mention that its Tom Swale that's the crazy one. I don't think they mention Carl until they meet them both. But then again I could be wrong. Either way one or the other could be just living there maybe after a divorce or something.

But by other romances, I just meant Nita and Kits; more specifically Nita/Ronan for a bit and then Kit. But of course, I think it would be just me who feels like bring in Carl and Tom's relationship would be just too distracting.

[Nights Mistress]

Yeah, I'm on a yearly lease here - it's more that you can break lease on a month's notice, whereas you can't really ... break a mortgage short of selling the property and paying out the bank. We can be reasonably sure that the house is on a mortgage or owned as opposed to rented given that they keep dogs and koi fish in a pond in the backyard, and my landlord would flip if we did anything of the sort on our rented property! The shared pets are why I am not so certain that it is one of them living there after a divorce - I know that when I lived with a couple that had pets, they certainly weren't my pets. They were the pets of my flatmates that I occasionally fed and looked after when they went away.

Like ... having lived in a flatmate situation with both a couple and two singles, I can tell you that there is a very different dynamic. Things like if you live together as two singles it's rare to share food - their habit of keeping what soft drink Nita likes around the house would be kind of weird because if they are two singles, whose budget would that come out of? Though there are exceptions, combining finances is a couple-y thing, even for something simple like food. There's a lot of little clues throughout the series that, if you live in a flatmate situation or have known people who have, it makes you go "these two are in a stable long term romantic relationship" even before you consider the whole mortgage thing.

I guess I don't see why there needs to be a "focus" on the relationship any more than there has to be a focus on Kit's parents or Nita's parents while Nita's mother was alive. It's Nita and Kit's coming of age story, not Tom and Carl's; it would be kind of cluttered if we started exploring their relationship to anything like the same degree as we examine Nita and Kit's development not because they're gay, straight, poly or whatever, but instead because it is not about them! It's why I'm okay with it being "in a relationship but never really explored past the same depth that ANY of the adult relationships are explored". That way it's treated as being every day matter of fact stuff works fine for me.