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  • Power-Spotting

    In another thread, the question came up of what roles the various Powers might take on in stories that haven't been brought up yet.... This is for speculation on that.

    I'll start with the ones I remember we have encountered in the books, and their names.... I figure stuff that would fit here might include correspondences I haven't spotted, "filling in" characters in different religious, mythological, and/or folkloric settings, maybe even in some fiction.

    It might be useful to remember the passage in A Wizard Abroad about how where the Powers got done with their business and moved on the stories tend to run to a Creator with various assistants, where they hung around longer the stories run to pantheons, and then in some places like Ireland they still haven't left. (I suppose that leads to... er... a lot of stories about happening to run into supernatural beings by accident? I'm not at all sure how to put that. :/)

    Okay. The list.

    The One, Life, Iau Hauhai, the Fire at the Heart, the Heart, and as far as I can tell the central figure of, as stated, any system with a supreme Creator-God and many assistants. (Has been explicitly associated with Christianity and with Native American religions.) The ultimate creator; I think also referred to in High Wizardry as the Source and "That in Which" the other Powers move. Would obviously be Eru/Iluvatar in Tolkien.

    The Whisperer, the Silent One, Hrauh -- We're introduced to this Power as a Power in the feline wizard novels, and I get the impression there that She wrote the Bright Book, even though in SYW it's suggested that it just is and wasn't written. Possibly she is it, to some degree. Apparently is the Power who communicates with wizards who don't have a physical copy of the Manual; thus also the Knowledge and the Silence, possibly. I'm not entirely sure about that.

    The Old Tom, Urrua, the Trickster, son and lover of Iau, the Afterthought, Her gift to Herself, the Devourer of Young -- I don't think we explicitly meet this one anywhere except the cat novels so far, but I could easily be wrong. He sounds like he might be another somewhat ambivalent figure, but doesn't appear to have a role going against the other Powers, at least for the cats. I would guess he gets slotted into some of the various Trickster-roles elsewhere? Anansi the spider, maybe...? Coyote? Don't know. Can obviously be destructive, but I suppose they all can.

    Irh -- Mentioned in the feline wizard novels. Parts of his anatomy are used as an exclamation. No idea of equivalents.

    Morrigan -- One of the Powers that can go either way, the spirit of Ireland if I'm remembering right -- Associated with death, war, and peace. A smith. Got very attached to Ireland and for a while gave up much of her power to be allowed to stay.

    And of course the ones we seem to see the most of....

    The Winged Defender, the One's Champion, Peach, Aaurh, Michael, Prometheus (only she never had to steal the fire, think that was malicious gossip from her brother? ) Thor, Athene (busy little bee in Greece, wasn't she?), Lugh the All-Crafted. Also present in Ronan.

    The Lone Power or Lone One, Eldest (another time-based weirdness -- the cats address It as Eldest despite the Lone One being third-born as their story seems to go...), Fairest and Fallen, the Beautiful One, Lightbringer (Lucifer, I take it), Star of the Morning, associated with Satan, a cat identifies Mephistopheles with the Lone One in Faust, Balor, sa'Rraah (I misspelled that, didn't I?), the Devastatrix, Mistress of the Unmastered Fire, Unmastered Fire, mistress of the tenth life. Somewhat perplexingly, the glossary describes sa'Rraah as "the feline ambivalent Power, roughly analogous to the Lone Power," but within the story she gets called the Lone Power and sa'Rraah pretty interchangeably.
    The Defender's twin, at least sometimes. Um... would be Melkor/Morgoth in Tolkien. I can't match up any of the other Valar without a copy of the Silmarillion.

    So... we have the Defender claiming roles in at least a couple of systems where nobody else seems to have an explicit one yet.... Anybody want to fill in? Or come up with something else entirely? Or have I scared you all off by babbling?

  • #2
    In another thread, the question came up of what roles the various Powers might take on in stories that haven't been brought up yet.... This is for speculation on that.

    I'll start with the ones I remember we have encountered in the books, and their names.... I figure stuff that would fit here might include correspondences I haven't spotted, "filling in" characters in different religious, mythological, and/or folkloric settings, maybe even in some fiction.

    It might be useful to remember the passage in A Wizard Abroad about how where the Powers got done with their business and moved on the stories tend to run to a Creator with various assistants, where they hung around longer the stories run to pantheons, and then in some places like Ireland they still haven't left. (I suppose that leads to... er... a lot of stories about happening to run into supernatural beings by accident? I'm not at all sure how to put that. :/)

    Okay. The list.

    The One, Life, Iau Hauhai, the Fire at the Heart, the Heart, and as far as I can tell the central figure of, as stated, any system with a supreme Creator-God and many assistants. (Has been explicitly associated with Christianity and with Native American religions.) The ultimate creator; I think also referred to in High Wizardry as the Source and "That in Which" the other Powers move. Would obviously be Eru/Iluvatar in Tolkien.

    The Whisperer, the Silent One, Hrauh -- We're introduced to this Power as a Power in the feline wizard novels, and I get the impression there that She wrote the Bright Book, even though in SYW it's suggested that it just is and wasn't written. Possibly she is it, to some degree. Apparently is the Power who communicates with wizards who don't have a physical copy of the Manual; thus also the Knowledge and the Silence, possibly. I'm not entirely sure about that.

    The Old Tom, Urrua, the Trickster, son and lover of Iau, the Afterthought, Her gift to Herself, the Devourer of Young -- I don't think we explicitly meet this one anywhere except the cat novels so far, but I could easily be wrong. He sounds like he might be another somewhat ambivalent figure, but doesn't appear to have a role going against the other Powers, at least for the cats. I would guess he gets slotted into some of the various Trickster-roles elsewhere? Anansi the spider, maybe...? Coyote? Don't know. Can obviously be destructive, but I suppose they all can.

    Irh -- Mentioned in the feline wizard novels. Parts of his anatomy are used as an exclamation. No idea of equivalents.

    Morrigan -- One of the Powers that can go either way, the spirit of Ireland if I'm remembering right -- Associated with death, war, and peace. A smith. Got very attached to Ireland and for a while gave up much of her power to be allowed to stay.

    And of course the ones we seem to see the most of....

    The Winged Defender, the One's Champion, Peach, Aaurh, Michael, Prometheus (only she never had to steal the fire, think that was malicious gossip from her brother? ) Thor, Athene (busy little bee in Greece, wasn't she?), Lugh the All-Crafted. Also present in Ronan.

    The Lone Power or Lone One, Eldest (another time-based weirdness -- the cats address It as Eldest despite the Lone One being third-born as their story seems to go...), Fairest and Fallen, the Beautiful One, Lightbringer (Lucifer, I take it), Star of the Morning, associated with Satan, a cat identifies Mephistopheles with the Lone One in Faust, Balor, sa'Rraah (I misspelled that, didn't I?), the Devastatrix, Mistress of the Unmastered Fire, Unmastered Fire, mistress of the tenth life. Somewhat perplexingly, the glossary describes sa'Rraah as "the feline ambivalent Power, roughly analogous to the Lone Power," but within the story she gets called the Lone Power and sa'Rraah pretty interchangeably.
    The Defender's twin, at least sometimes. Um... would be Melkor/Morgoth in Tolkien. I can't match up any of the other Valar without a copy of the Silmarillion.

    So... we have the Defender claiming roles in at least a couple of systems where nobody else seems to have an explicit one yet.... Anybody want to fill in? Or come up with something else entirely? Or have I scared you all off by babbling?

    Comment


    • #3
      *grins* babble away- though I have to say it think it's too well-organised to be thought of as babbling. So.

      I jut really have one, and he's really rather confusing. One of the main heroes of the Maori mythology (and I believe many other Polynesian mythologies; definitely Hawaiian, according to Meteorie, IIRC) is Maui. My knowledge of Maori myth ispretty scanty, unfortunately, but two things he definitely does do is steal fire, and slow down the sun- both pretty important things(even if he is dreadfully irresponsible with the fire.) The stealing fire thing, in particular, leads me to associate him with Prometheus and therefore with the Winged Defender (Athene was always my favourite goddess anyway...) Secondly, I think you missed that the Winged Defender is also known as Minerva (Roman myth), and possibly (though this one's a little sketchy) Sulis. Sulis was the Celtic goddess that Romans linked Minerva with, anyway, which would indicate a sort of convergence of ideals...

      I think you spelled Sa'Rraah right, actually. Also, I was thinking that in Greek/Roman mythology the LP would be equated at leat with one or two of the Titans (please tell me if I'm confused here; I haven't read any mythology for quite a while) and could also be associated with Pluto/Hades. On the other hand, Pluto/Hades could also be associated with the ambivalent Powers, as he wasn't always nasty; in fact he was mostly neutral, except in the famous cases of Persephone and Orpheus and Euridice.

      And another counterpart of Urrua would, I think, be Loki. Trickster, did some good things and some seriously bad ones too... works for me.

      T

      Tuibird in Aotearoa
      Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
      Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
      Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
      My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
      Spelling Freak and Typo Queen
      Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

      Comment


      • #4
        I always forget to put the Roman ones. Yeah, yeah, go ahead and laugh. I never heard of Sulis, afraid Celtic isn't one I've read up on.

        Even with Persephone, you could argue that Hades wasn't the only one of the gods to engage in luring or kidnapping of a girl or pursuit of an unwilling goddess. (Zeus tricked Hera... and Herakles' mother, if I remember right.... Carried off Europa. Daphne got her father to turn her into a tree to get away from Apollo. Poseidon spent quite a while chasing Demeter....) And Orpheus... well, considering Zeus killed Aesclepius for raising the dead and causing chaos, one could argue that Hades gave him more of a chance than was really necessary. *pause* Or were you meaning him as non-neutral on the kind side in that one?

        Alan made the rather unnerving suggestion that if you do equate Hades and the Lone One Persephone could have been a wizard who crashed and burned rather badly on Ordeal.

        Now I'm being ambivalent, I guess.

        Loki works very well indeed as a trickster figure. Though I admit to a sneaking fondness for the idea that his getting Baldur the Beautiful killed refers, in the YW universe, to the same thing as "I cannot go back. That part of me I murdered, willingly...."

        Actually, on the Norse theme, the squirrel running up and down the World Tree carrying insults between the snake gnawing at the root and the eagle (or was it a hawk?) sitting at the top reminds me rather absurdly of the Lone Power and Michael on the phone in SYW. I may just be being odd there, though.

        You know, I'm pretty sure Maui is in a folklore book I have, at least one story of him is, but it's at my parents' house so I can't check right now.

        Who might the Silent One/Whisperer be for anyone but the cats?

        Comment


        • #5
          Shouldn't've forgotten this one....

          The Whisperer is also called the Lady of the Hearth, in the cat books, and thus might be Hestia/Vesta?

          Comment


          • #6
            Hestia: Nice. I bet you're right.

            I was also thinking sa'Rraah might be aligned quite closely with Nemesis...sa'Rraah in her slightly-on-the-good-side aspect, I think.

            *laughs* No, I forget the Roman ones too: but currently we're doing the Aeneid in Latin, so I'm ending up very Roman-conscious. (to the extent that I walk through town and think, oh, look, htat' sna influence of Roman Architecture. See those pilasters! Very freaky.)

            We learnt about Sulis a few years ago while studying the Roman occupation of Britain. The springs at Bath were named after her: aquae Sulis, and she was associated with Minerva, known as "Sulis Minerva." That's literally all I know about her.

            *shivers* That Persephone idea is very interesting... though I don't know. Remember that Penelope ended up staying of her own free will, and yet was still closely aligned with her mother, spending half her tiem in each kingdom. Anyway, I was just offering Persephone as an example of one of the (relatively) fewer time he got involved. As for Orpheus: yeah, I was using that as an example of him being kind. Very un-LPish... or you could look at it the way Nita saw how he was treating her: giving her a choice that was no choice at all, with a very slim chance of success that was all but destroyed by human nature. It does seem a little unfair.

            Actually, the Nita's Mother/Euridice parallels are very strong...

            Hestia is a nice one for the Whisperer, though I suspect if we look hard enough we might find her in a more major role also. Not Hera, definitely not Hera.... possibly a male. Mercury? Nah, too flighty... in terms of the Knowledge I'm tempted to mention, again, Athene, but she's taken (blast. ). It's hard.

            T

            Tuibird in Aotearoa
            Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
            Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
            Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
            My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
            Spelling Freak and Typo Queen
            Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

            Comment


            • #7
              Matching in Greco-Roman roles is perhaps slightly complicated by the line about how Prometheus didn't actually steal the fire.... Either it makes it more difficult or gives us more possibilities if we pick out one thread and not another, so to speak.

              Nemesis: Good one. ...Wasn't there something about her eventually leaving earth because humans weren't acting justly, or am I mixing that up with something else?

              Aquae Sulis, now that you mention it, sounds familiar, although I haven't the foggiest idea what context it sounds familiar from. Maybe I'm imagining it.

              Sorry about the misreading of what you meant the examples for....

              How willing and/or resigned Persephone was seems to vary a lot depending on the teller. Being a softie, I personally prefer the ones where she at least came to have some fondness for the role, but there are those where the implication is that she was miserable the entire time. *grins* Anyway, I think Hades would probably fit well as an ambivalent Power, but the other does make a neat story. *pauses to try to figure out how the bit where Sisyphus tied him up works either way*

              And yeah, Orpheus and Eurydice can be read either as more of a chance than he'd normally have gotten or a sort of cruel taunt.

              Whisperer... Knowledge... hrrr. Apollo? In the prophecy associations? Though he could be, um, capricious, himself....

              Comment


              • #8
                Maybe one of the other pantheons, not necessarily Western. I personally am fond of Ganesh, Remover of Obstacles and a god of wisdom in the Hindu pantheon. Or possibly Thoth, although I'm not sure if the ancient Egyptians had a specific god of wisdom.
                You could also go with St. Hypatia, patroness of libraries!
                "Thus is Balance maintained." A Wizard of Earthsea
                "Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance." Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

                Comment


                • #9
                  Meteorite: Good to see you. We're hoping for people to bring in mythologies we aren't so familiar with, actually, as well as trying to "fill in" a few roles in ones we are -- Ganesh sounds interesting; I don't remember reading about him....

                  *grins at the St. Hypatia suggestion!*

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I know the Celts and the Egyptians had a Creator-God. The Celts also knew this God as the Source.

                    The Celts had a goddess named Brighid, who was the protector of women. This could tie in with the Whisperer in the feline novels. Rhiow says somwhere in there that since the Whisperer was female, she knew more about female...discomforts...than a male god (or Power) would and worked around them. The Egyptians had a similar goddess named Hathor.

                    Meteorite: I don't think there is an Egyptian god/goddess of wisdom, but Maat was the goddess of truth and justice. That's close enough, I guess.

                    Another Egyptian god is Set, the god of chaos. I suppose he could be compared to the Lone Power.

                    St. Hypatia, patroness of libraries. She's my new favorite person.

                    Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.

                    Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.
                    I will rejoice in the moonlight;
                    I will dance in the rivers of my tears;
                    For I am joyously, wonderfully alive!

                    Make your own laws or be a slave to another man's. -William Blake

                    School is hell with flourescent lighting.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You're right: Hypatia is cool. I learnt about Hypatia from an Anne McCaffrey book. This is why everyone should read everything.

                      Nemesis: No idea... my mythology is SO sketchy.

                      *grins* Misreading? We all do it. Actually, it raised some interesting points.

                      I like the Persephone-feeling-sorry for Hades versions too... they're just a little less tragic. Read too much Greek mythology and you get SO tired of tragedy. Speaking of tragedy: you don't happen to remember what Tantalus did that got him a private spot in Hell? (Had a brief, er, discussion in Latin today. It's as yet unresolved. )

                      I personally have real problems with Apollo. So no. But I see what you mean, particularly in connection with the Delphaic Oracle.

                      I think the Egyptian god is mentioned in BoNWM, though possibly not by name... but the Whisperer definitely has an exact or close-to-exact Egyptian counterpart, which is cool.

                      Littlehorse: from my sketchy Egyptian, I like your ones.
                      T

                      Tuibird in Aotearoa
                      Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
                      Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
                      Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
                      My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
                      Spelling Freak and Typo Queen
                      Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If I'm not mixing up the stories, Tantalus (for reasons I do not recall, though it may have had something to do with his family being under a curse -- I don't think he was the first of his relatives to get in weird forms of trouble) invited several of the gods to dinner, and served up his son (Pelops?) as the main dish. They were offended.

                        I think they also brought Pelops back to life and had to replace one of his shoulder blades with something because it had been cracked to get at the marrow.

                        While I can imagine having problems with Apollo, it might also be worth considering that we've already had the claim that as Prometheus the Defender 'never had to steal' the fire -- there may be some flexibility possible. Though the Whisperer as the cats know her really doesn't seem the warrior type....

                        Littlehorse, I also like yours -- especially Maat.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          *grins* thanks. Yeah, I think his family was cursed, although possibly he was the first: that curse was I think the one the cursed, uhm, Agamemnon I think...

                          I have been rebuked about Maui: Maui, I am told, is probably better associated with Sa'Rraah in her ambiguous form, because he was EXTREMELY ambiguous, and also with the Trickster Power.

                          The Lone Power can be a combination of Tawhiri Matea, God of the Winds and Storms. The key thing here is he was the one who was against his brothers and sisters: he wanted the light to never come in in the Creation Myth. (Papatuanuku and Ranginui were the first goddess and god, come out of Te Po, the Night, and at first were eternally locked in a loving embrace. But Thier children were forced to live in creases in their bodies and got sick of it, so Tane planted his feet on his father Rangi and pushed up to separate them. Rangi is the Sky Father, Papa the Earth Mother.) The LP can also be Hine Nui Te Po, who was originally Hine Titama, but turned towards the Underworld after discovering her husband was also her father (LONG story.) She became Goddess of the Underworld.

                          The Winged Defender's probably my favourite Maori God: Tane, God of Forests.. He created humanity, he brought the light, he was the one who spent his time working to help the people. he also has a strong identification with the Whisperer, as he gave knowledge to humanity.

                          THANK YOU to my best friend who actually takes Maori and came through and told me I was absolutely wrong, and this was why. She's not a mamber here... but I thought I'd better tell y'all that this is her work.
                          T

                          Tuibird in Aotearoa
                          Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
                          Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
                          Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
                          My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
                          Spelling Freak and Typo Queen
                          Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't think Lugh the All-Crafted is associated with Michael. Remember, Biddy was Lugh. I think. Damnit, I don't have the motivation to go get the book to cross-reference. Ah well, someone else will do it.

                            --Dai Stihó

                            Bishie
                            'Mancer
                            Foam Poet

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No, Biddy was Govan, the Smith-God. The Winged Defender was Lugh, and then Lugh was Ronan.
                              T

                              Tuibird in Aotearoa
                              Conservationist, Scientist, and proud of both!
                              Chocolate lover extraordinaire...
                              Ahahahaha, ahahahahaha, ahahahaha...
                              My mission: Bringing Maori to the world!
                              Spelling Freak and Typo Queen
                              Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                              Comment

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