Eragon

[maxxrox]

I was actually upset at Anne's commendation of the book.

Maybe I do not remember the book fully, but I can't think of a single significant idea used in those books that hadn't been used previously elsewhere. Please tell me which ones you are referring to, and I mean that in a completely non-inflamitory way.

[Dragon Writer]

Ok, um, with artimis fowl and the bartimus or whatever triology...not shocking in the slightest. when i say shocking, i don't just mean you didn't predict it, i mean you're catually surpised it happened, and nothing did that in either book...I'm talking about the ending of wizard's first rule shocking, which makes almost everyone who reads it almost fall off their seat from shock, yet makes so much sense they feel like an idiot for not seeing it sooner...admitingly, eragon and eldest didn't have that much of stuff like that either, but they seemed to make more of an effort at plot twists then some books...don't get me wrong, i love the other books too, and i don't just judge things by the twists...But i still appreiciate when something actully manages to shock me these days...it seems these days that almost all the good twists have been taken though, so the only way to make it really twisting and turning, is to use stuff that has been used so many times it makes the books look unorriginal...I mean, in every book that i read, of those you said were orriginal, i didn't find a single really big twist in any of them...i mean, things happen that you didn't see coming at the beginning of the book, but they're the kind of things you just shrug off and say "cool..." not the kind of things you gape at and say "WHAT!"

[maxxrox]

First of all: that "wizards' first rule" scene has been done soooo many times in other settings with other characters. In fact, it is the easiest, most popular, and most convenient way to have a character discover their power (be it wizardry or super-powers). Just read some comic books and you'll see.

I never said that Paolini wasn't a good writer. He writes very well. It's his ideas that are so cliche that they make his writing look bad.

[jwiz]

You know, there are about a thouand, million, trillion books in the world and after a while, every idea gets used. it is through no fault of the writer that their ideas have also been used before their books. It is something us bibliomaniacs will have to learn to live with else all the books we read will just become too rutine to read. I am NOT saying that some books are total copies or that there aren't any books that steal amother book's plot but let's face the music- It is going to get more and more predictable the more you read. I, too, saw the love thing between Arya and Eragon( Why are they all Blonde!!!! no offense to any londes out there) and i saw Murtagh becoming a Rider. Books get predictable. Maybe it is a fact of life, i don't know. *sighs and shakes head sadly*. But i think that we should at least give every author props for trying to add their own, personal flair to the plot, however badly it turned out. (I mean, It has got to be hard!)
-----
Oh, and I just remembered that i heard that his second book took so long to come oue because the publishers or something thought it was luck (and him being a younger writer) that made the frist book sell so well. so he was trying to develope it better or something. That might also be a contributer to the second book's, well, what do you call it... oh man, I forgot what its called. oh well. you get what I mean, I think.

[edited to consolidate double-post. --kli.]

[maxxrox]

To prove to you how cliche Eragon is, I will parallel it with Star Wars, since that movie is so much the cliche hero story that it is used as the example in most writing classes:

-There's an evil empire that rules cruelly
-Farmboy finds great power, goes away with temporary wise trainer (eventually to be replaced with true master)
-Wise guider person (trainer) dies in fight against "evil power"
-new master is reeeeeaaaaallly old
-Farmboy's home is destroyed, forcing him to go on adventure
-2 evils: greater and lesser (Galbatorix and Durza, Emperor and Vader)
-Farmboy gets good at what he does and joins resistance movement vs evil empire
-Farmboy's power is unique to the great Evil and him - nobody else has it (excluding trainer and master

I could go on and on. Think about it a little. Nothing Paolini wrote even attempted to go far from the standard cliche.

Not even Tolken follows the cliche hero story that closely, and he established the standard for the genre! Look closely at any Pern book, any Harry Potter book, any hero book. Few follow the cliche story as closely as Eragon does. Of course, there are a few things along the way, but so are there in Star Wars and it is still used to present the standard hero story.

Another thing I don't like about the book is that the setting is empty. We see certain things and know certain things, but we don't get the feeling of deep history as we do in Tolken, Pierce, McCaffrey, or even Rowling. The background feels like a facade, just an image that is there because it needs to be. Likewise, Paolini's characters are the same: shallow. They seem to all be portions of the same person, as if he has trouble seperating the characters from himself and giving them their own personalities.

I am not an absolute bibliophile. I do love reading, but no more than your average high-school nerd. Having read quite a bit of fantasy literature and even tried writing some, I think I can say with some confidence that I am accurately judging Paolini's writing. Because I have tried to write, I also realize how difficult it is to do the things I'm suggesting to Paolini, but that does not sway my judgement. Just because a 12-year-old can write a book doesn't mean he should and it definitely doesn't mean that the book will measure up to great or even mediocre fantasy literature.

I have said this before and I will say it again: Paolini has talent. Now if he will work a little bit harder at developing his characters and setting, and come up with some original ideas, he could join the ranks of the great fantasy writers.

[jwiz]

I never siad that he did a good job about the copying thing, but I still believe in giving him credit. Most of us here are going to have to agree to disagree. i stil hold my own personal opinion that it was a good book.

I saw a commercial for the movie yesterday on nick at, like, six. my little sister was jumpimg around the house in excitement because she thought it came out on Chrismas and the commercail said the 15. Crazy little girl ...* Shakes head fondly*

Consolidating double-post - Peter

[GreenCat3]

Originally posted by maxxrox:
To prove to you how cliche Eragon is, I will parallel it with Star Wars, since that movie is so much the cliche hero story that it is used as the example in most writing classes:

-There's an evil empire that rules cruelly
-Farmboy finds great power, goes away with temporary wise trainer (eventually to be replaced with true master)
-Wise guider person (trainer) dies in fight against "evil power"
-new master is reeeeeaaaaallly old
-Farmboy's home is destroyed, forcing him to go on adventure
-2 evils: greater and lesser (Galbatorix and Durza, Emperor and Vader)
-Farmboy gets good at what he does and joins resistance movement vs evil empire
-Farmboy's power is unique to the great Evil and him - nobody else has it (excluding trainer and master

I could go on and on. Think about it a little. Nothing Paolini wrote even attempted to go far from the standard cliche.

Not even Tolken follows the cliche hero story that closely, and he established the standard for the genre! Look closely at any Pern book, any Harry Potter book, any hero book. Few follow the cliche story as closely as Eragon does. Of course, there are a few things along the way, but so are there in Star Wars and it is still used to present the standard hero story.

Another thing I don't like about the book is that the setting is empty. We see certain things and know certain things, but we don't get the feeling of deep history as we do in Tolken, Pierce, McCaffrey, or even Rowling. The background feels like a facade, just an image that is there because it needs to be. Likewise, Paolini's characters are the same: shallow. They seem to all be portions of the same person, as if he has trouble seperating the characters from himself and giving them their own personalities.

I am not an absolute bibliophile. I do love reading, but no more than your average high-school nerd. Having read quite a bit of fantasy literature and even tried writing some, I think I can say with some confidence that I am accurately judging Paolini's writing. Because I have tried to write, I also realize how difficult it is to do the things I'm suggesting to Paolini, but that does not sway my judgement. Just because a 12-year-old can write a book doesn't mean he should and it definitely doesn't mean that the book will measure up to great or even mediocre fantasy literature.

I have said this before and I will say it again: Paolini has talent. Now if he will work a little bit harder at developing his characters and setting, and come up with some original ideas, he could join the ranks of the great fantasy writers.

Seconded, seconded, seconded. Good effort, Mr. Paolini, but this one should've mellowed in your hard drive for a year or two, and then you should have gone back and ruthlessly red-penned it. I mean, I'm ashamed of stuff I wrote three weeks ago, never mind a year.

A couple of my friends and I have considered going to the movie dressed as characters from Star Wars, but we don't feel like spending our precious little money on that just before the Season of Gross Consumerism....I mean, the holidays.

[Frivs]

xD Alright, alright, the star wars thing made me laugh *snort* The moving the entire village thing was pretty cool in Eldest, though...'twas my favorite part, and I don't know if that's been done before, at least not in the "popular" books, though that doesn't mean anything.

Anne is a very intelligent person, and I would trust her to be able to spot a budding success.

[kk]

I cant wait 2 c da eragon movie!!!!!!!!

[maxxrox]

i lyke ti wen ppl use grmmr + spllng!!!11!1!!!1

I apologise for my leet. I was just making an example.

And in conclusion...

[Fox]

hahaha 1337 is funny! Anyway does anyone have an approx date for the release of book 3? I mean he did eldest in what, a year? so is he not due for the third release? maybe after the movie is released? be a great christmas present. What do you all think of the eragon website. it has changed since the last time i was on there.
Fox

[Paxsidhe]

I'm with maxxrox, GreenCat3, and the_peridexis on this one. Somewhere out there, there is a copy of Eragon that is stained with tears of frustration - MY tears. It's a perfectly palatable tale, provided that you don't care that there's not an original scrap in it - but if you do, oh what agony. I literally made a mental list of every time I recognized the influence of another, older series/book as I went through the first book; by the time I was done, the list was 15 long, and I don't even consider myself particularly well read in the swords and sorcery area of fantasy. There was one part that I wasn't able to identify with another author's work - the Were-cat, Solomon. I liked the character quite a lot, and considered it some small redemption for the generic nature of the entirety of the rest of the book. Then about a week later, my eye fell on Sabriel on my bookshelf, and I realized, "Duh. Mogget."

There's no good reason for this book not to exist, but there's no good reason for it to exist, either; it's all been done before, and done better. If it gets kids interested and poking farther into fantasy, fantastic. But I just have this fear that those same kids are going to just stick with the soulless, pop-fantasy that seems to be increasing in the market as nerdiness becomes acceptable, and never really get into the heart and soul of the genre.

[bluesalamanders]

I saw a commercial for the movie this evening.

They need to find a better editor, one who doesn't make it look like LotR meets Pern (not the best combination ever, in my opinion...).

I think it is fantastic that the 17/19/whatever year old kid wrote a full-length book. I wrote something nearly that long when I was around that age, and I wasn't a half-bad writer (for my age) either. However, there are reasons that it remains on the floppy disk it's saved on.

Blue~

[Dragon Writer]

who cares if a lot of it's been done before...what you fail to realize is, with all the books you are comparing eragon too, they walso were probably done before...there is probably something just like star wars, but older, out there, that was never really read enough to be popular, and the same with hobit, and probably something much like young wizards....if we can think of it, at this point, its probably been done a thousand times, it's just that sometimes we don't realize it....And i know the sword of truth serreies ending has been done a million times, i mean it goes back to star wars for goodness sakes, and probably is older, but that's what makes it all the more shocking...the fact that they take a twist we're all so familiar with, and we STILL miss it...i'm not the only one who got shocked...i mean, you spend so much time thinking about the characters, the dephth of it, and all that, that you don't have time to really look ahead by the time the clues start coming in...

[bluesalamanders]

YR -

It's not the matter of "it's been done before". Everything has been done before. There are only, what, 20 or so possible plots? We don't "fail to realize that" - everyone who has critisized Eragon here knows that, I promise you.

The problem is more along the lines of "he didn't put an innovative spin on it". Splicing famous stories together and changing names isn't innovative. It's juvenile. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do - when you're learning how to write. Everyone does things like that when they first start writing. It just shouldn't be published that way. Most (I am optimistic...) people learn to recognize it, and the lucky (or talented) ones also learn to overcome it.

Blue~