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Mrs. Callahan's choice

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  • #16
    It isn't necessarily that there was a point to her dying at that particular time. The stories recognize that you don't get to fix everything yet, and not all the deaths are to a purpose. (Cf. one of the ones that didn't get time-patched in The Book of Night with Moon, though that one was a rather different situation. More abrupt, no direct rescue effort -- though the wizard hurt worst by it thought of making a retroactive attempt.)

    I'm tempted to say that the point of her dying was a literary one, but I know that isn't satisfactory in terms of the fictional world's setup. *g*

    I think, most likely, there was a problem with saving her due to the methods involved up to that point. Not Kit's, not Nita's desire to save her, but the deal Nita had grown willing to make. I remember arguing with someone over Lord of the Rings -- they suggested that (particularly the way the scene was depicted in the movie) Elrond should have just shoved Isildur into the lava instead of letting him walk away with the One Ring; my response was that Elrond knew perfectly well that he lived in a universe where the means you took to an end mattered and murdering a friend to destroy the ring would, one way or another, have had repercussions worse than letting him walk away. Now, you may take issue with this on the grounds that there is enough further war in Tolkien to cast doubt on whether a murder would indeed have such an effect, but whether that example is a good one or not, the means of accomplishing something has been established in YW as having a decided effect on its outcome. Sometimes killing or memory wipes or other such things may be necessary, but you don't do them lightly or without reason.

    ...In short (too late, huh?), I do not have a definitive answer about Mrs. Callahan's decision, though I suspect that having held the glede her vision of herself may have been clearer than usual. Another literary example that a friend pointed out -- that of Digory's mother in The Magician's Nephew -- clears it up for me somewhat emotionally; there was, literally, fruit from the tree of life involved, and it would have saved her life whether he had stolen it or been given it legitimately... but if it had been stolen, even though she would have been innocent, the effects would have been very much like the ones Mrs. Callahan described. I am not sure the situation is properly analogous, since in fact what worked was the glede that Kit got quite legitimately.

    I can still understand feeling uncomfortable with the end of Dilemma, actually, and I'm not sure drawing in other references to explain it is a legitimate method, even if I see echoes of them in other parts of the series. *g* Still, I have another question -- would you have felt entirely comfortable, morally and thematically, with the story if Mrs. Callahan's life had been saved and Nita's bargain with the Lone One had been erased without trace, despite its influence?

    (Actually I'm still a little uncertain how that last bit worked too. I'm considering the possibility the Lone Power lied to Nita about her having made the bargain already and it became true when she internalized that, but I find the idea of Mrs. Callahan being able to overrule that personal Choice, even in her own personal universe, a little disconcerting. Though it wasn't that alone, but Nita reclaiming an earlier version of her name and self... um, this belongs in some other topic, doesn't it.)

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    • #17
      How do you begin to post another post after two great big ones!!!??? This is going to take some thought!!! *walks away with a thoughful look*
      I WILL BE BACK!!!!!
      Fox
      God its hard to keep up with everything here!!

      Memember of The STTF (Save the topic foundation).

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      • #18
        I think that as many have said that Mrs. Callahan made the choice because she felt that if she escaped death once she would wish to do so again, and again, and eventually die bitter and unhappy.
        xx
        Julie H.
        oo

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        • #19
          I solemnly swear I am up to no good...

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          • #20
            Time to get this topic going again I think!!
            Right let me read from where I was last time

            *Be back in Five min, out to lunch*

            Sohma Kodora some great points there! I agree and also think that because they know Nita is a wizard they have asked alot of questions and she has proberly told them about timeheart! That in its self would cure any fears she had about dieing!! True she would have to deal with death sooner! I think also that Mrs C would have seen that her two little girls did not need protecting any more as they where protecting the planet! I mean true they would stll need her but in a way they are far more grown up than most people on the planet!

            Lamarquise I think the point was that if you except your death when its your time to go, that makes a differnace! and also If you except that death and are not affaid of it that will make an even more impact. I really don't think her death was point less, it was her time and not only that she gave Nita and Dar an insite into what they are protecting against! She has given them there reson to carry on the fight and too win!

            And I can't be bothered to write anymore tonight! I really do ope this re-starts this topic! Its an interesting one that helps me see the differance of opion towards death! I myself am not affaird of dieing! I think I'm looking forward to see what happens afterwords!After all all that energy in the human body must go somewhere! We have little reactors in every cell! thats a lot of energy to get rid off and we all know that energy cannot be destroyed!
            Fox
            God its hard to keep up with everything here!!

            Memember of The STTF (Save the topic foundation).

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            • #21
              *bangs head against wall*

              this is really important to this--the dragon's eye. The dragon's eyes, supposedly, are the part that would bring it to life--has anyone ever read the story? Okay, for those who haven't, I'll try to relate it to you here:

              There was an emperor (or mandarin, depending on the version, but it really doesn't make much difference in this case) who once decided that his palace was far too open to attack, and dcreed that a wall be built around it. The wall was built, and was deemed the strongest wall the present technology had ever produced. However, being a practical fixture, it was quite plain; thus, it was decided it was in need of decoration.

              Somewhere nearby lived a painter of unusual skill, and the emperor, impressed with the beauty and grace of his paintings, requested he paint a dragon on his wall--the man agrees, but adds the condition that the emperor accepts the dragon as he paints it, and attempts neither to alter it himself or to persuade or coerce the painter into changing it.

              The emperor agrees, and the painter paits the most beautiful and lifelike dragon that any who view it has ever seen, but with a single significant flaw: the dragon had no eyes. The emperor, seeing this, is appalled, and breaks his word to the painter by complaining to him about it; the painter refuses to change several times.

              What happens next varies depending on the version--some say it is the emperor who commissions a different painter to paint the eyes; others assert the original painter, angered at the emporer's disrespect, spitefully paints the eyes on the dragon and leaves the emperor to deal with the consequences himself. Either way, as soon as the eyes are finished, the dragon rises to life from out of the paint, destroying the wall in the process, and leaving the emporor and his people standing dumbfounded in the midst of the ruins of their invincible wall.

              A little bit of significant background info on this story: the dragon's eyes are one of the nine likenesses of the dragon. Dragons are said to have eyes of demons, in that they are capable of burning into your soul and seeing the truth within. Also, it is very significant that the eyes are one of nine, and generally stated as the last likeness--nine is the number of the dragon, and very significant in related culture. Without the final likeness, the dragon is even more incomplete than if he'd simply been missing a toe or somesuch.

              If we take this to mean that a dragon without eyes is fatally flawed, then this could perhaps be a metaphor for the sort of immortality the LP took away in creating death and "selling" his Choice among the mortal species ("uncorrupted matter"?). Without the eyes, the dragon is beatiful, but everyday--flat and mundane, for all its loveliness, but real and tangible as well. In adding the eyes to the painting, rather as an afterthought, the emperor lost the dragon to the nature of dragons, who are, as immortals, not as concerned with "our" level of existance. The emperor also lost his walls to the dragon's sudden flight; perhaps Nita's loss of her "normal" life to the flight of her mother, despite her physical presence?

              *looks up* wow, okay, I need to learn to summarize better...

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              • #22
                I don't get it!! Great bit of writing though! best I have read in ages! Now I know that the dragon's eye was in WD and how/why it was used on Nita, But what I don't get is your link to it!! Are you trying to say that Mrs C death was a metaphor for the dragons eye that causes Nita to become more than what she was (Like the dragon?)? An interesting idea!!! Very indepth thought!!

                Fox
                God its hard to keep up with everything here!!

                Memember of The STTF (Save the topic foundation).

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                • #23
                  No, that's not exactly what I meant... XD

                  I meant that, if you use the dragon as a metaphor for Nita's mother, you could say that Nita's attempts to save her or make her more whole would, in the end, cause her mother to become more out of her reach.

                  ...this is really hard to articulate... >.<

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                  • #24
                    wow- I get you now!!! How dumb am I!!! you don't have to answer that!! hahahaha.

                    What I think Nita failed to realize is that it was not her choice to make! Its not up to her who dies and who lives! She took that choice away from her mother, and towards the end Mrs C realized that it was her time and knew that she could help reduce the fear of death by not being afarid of it herself! what is it they say haveing fear of something increase the fear it gives! or something like that (I think H said it in Harry Potter!). I think Mrs C proved to be one of the most brave char seen so far in this series! not only that but she kick his backside in that fight she had!!

                    Fox
                    God its hard to keep up with everything here!!

                    Memember of The STTF (Save the topic foundation).

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lamarquise:
                      At the end of this story, Nita's mother refuses to do or let Nita do everything possible to halt the cancer that's killing her and thereby ensures her own death. She reasons that the Lone Power is simply trying to trick her into compromising herself. I'm not so sure her logic holds.
                      I've been re-reading the books, as I've mentioned in ToGR, and I wasn't looking forward to Dilemma. The first time around, I was so angry at the resolution that I couldn't even muster up the interest to pick up AWAl. This time around, at least I didn't want to throw the book at the wall.

                      It's a cracking story, don't get me wrong. And I have to say, having gone through the loss of both parents to cancer, I'm probably too biased to be completely objective. BUT, all that aside, I thought Mrs Callahan's logic was extremely unconvincing.

                      If the purpose of wizardry is to slow entropy down, then that is surely accomplished by defeating the cancer. There is a strong probability it was deliberately seeded in her by the Lone Power, so it wasn't something that would have occurred anyway.

                      Her argument "If I strive to live, it'll be all I think about and that's what the Lone Power wants" is so weak, that not only did it not convince me, it wouldn't have convinced Nita either. Here is a woman strong enough to face down the Lone Power herself - would she really be so weak as to succumb to the burning need to live she describes? It really doesn't ring true at all.

                      I felt DD wrote herself into a corner. She wanted Nita not to cheat death for her mother, she came up with many credible reasons why wizardry hasn't found a cure for cancer and the like. And yet how does she resolve it? By having the wizardry fail? No. By having Nita's Mom say that by facing death with acceptance, that's a bigger victory over the Lone Power. Uhh. No.

                      Now there's no doubt that having the wizardry fail would be more traumatic but it would be much more interesting to watch Nita wrestle with that, than try and swallow the idea that somehow NOT fighting cancer denies the Lone Power some future victory.

                      There's some good things in this book, but I'm never going to be able to view it with any enthusiasm. The ending just takes the shine off for me.
                      Some days it's just not worth gnawing through the straps

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                      • #26
                        The wizardry may not exactly have failed, but Yet Nita could feel through the kernel that there were some places where, for all the glede's power, that cleansing Sea didn't, couldn't quite reach. Scattered through her mother's inner world, little knots of darkness still lay, waiting... and there were many, many of them... -- from Wizard's Dilemma.

                        Dairine wanted, basically, to wave a wand and make it all better. She couldn't. Nor could Nita, though she tried much harder. The cancer was forced into remission for a while, but it was still there, it would come back.

                        Betsy Callahan's comments may have been aimed more at saving Nita from having to do that wizardry again and again for years. How often would she have to do it? Every month? Every other month? "Nita, it's Friday - time to cure my cancer for another week."? She might well have changed so that it was all she thought about. Betsy had already been presented as being more religious than her daughter; maybe having the cure turn into a regular chore felt too much to her like making a deal with the Devil. Maybe it would have soured her and Nita's relationship.
                        Just the FAQs, ma'am: Chat, Board and Books.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Peter Murray:
                          Betsy Callahan's comments may have been aimed more at saving Nita from having to do that wizardry again and again for years. How often would she have to do it? Every month? Every other month? "Nita, it's Friday - time to cure my cancer for another week." She might well have changed so that it was all she thought about. Betsy had already been presented as being more religious than her daughter; maybe having the cure turn into a regular chore felt too much to her like making a deal with the Devil. Maybe it would have soured her and Nita's relationship.
                          That's the best analysis of it I've read, Peter. Thank you for that, it's given me a new perspective. I certainly find her decision a bit less baffling if I look at it that way.
                          Some days it's just not worth gnawing through the straps

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                          • #28
                            I agree. Also, she knew that it was her time. She faced death without fear. That I believe is what others have said, a triumph over the Lone One. I say this since, the Lone One didn't take part in Creation, and it seems as if It created entropy in spite of the Others and if you do not fear it and die when it is your time and don't try to fight it forever and then be forced to give in, in fear, you spite death itself instead of it doing that to you.

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                            • #29
                              I was thinking about this a bit, and, really, it was kind of like the question that the Lone One asks every species, except only to Nita. I'll make your lives better, ,or you can have death. Nita almost chose the wrong path. She nearly chose the downfall of many civilizationis, but Mrs. C. stopped her. I think, like many of the posters here, that Mrs. C. knew that her time was up, and that she would only cause more suffering to her family if she stayed alive. I think it said somewhere that she wouldn't really be conplete. It would be like she was there, but she wasn't really or something. I dunno, I have to go look it up. So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. (that's a pretty good song)
                              just let your heart take over and sign with a flourish

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                              • #30
                                I think Mel is right,

                                Mrs. Callahan said that if she lived longer she'll die anyways, and she would die loney and alone becuase of wanting to live and live and live, and she will die anyways(sad moment...)

                                Besides, There is Always TimeHeart...

                                Random Thought-Mrs. Callahan would have made a good wizard

                                Dai!
                                ~*If Time Has A Heart, Its Only Becuase Other Hearts Stop*~

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