SYW Group Reading Discussion Thread

[illiriam]

Huh, I never thought of it that way Birdhead. Same difficulty, different significance. Or maybe it is more about scale? Which I guess can equate to significance.
And I like your idea about one long spell for the Ordeal. When looking back, it almost seems that it worked that way for everyone. Nita and Kit did their spell for finding her pen and Kit's aura, Ronan did the spell to take in the ocean during the timeslide, and Dairine's all started with her traveling spell, specifically to Mars. That one spell took them in a definite direction and determined the course that their Ordeal would take.
I can't believe I forgot that: A spell always works. So it does make a bit more sense that it was Fred that came. Their Ordeal was all about retrieving the Book of Night with Moon, and Freed was essential to making that happen. I guess I just admired their bravery in calling in the extra power without the experience to know this. They trusted in their luck and in their wizardry and the Powers. Which is part of what makes them such great wizards.

I always figured that if a wizard on Ordeal failed their Ordeal, it meant they died. Because they have to solve a problem, and there are two outcomes: either they succeed, or they fail. And if they are still alive after a failed attempt, then they would likely try again, until they can't try any more. Make any sense?
Because if Nita and Kit failed, they would have been killed by the LP, or died in the subsequent disaster that would befall the Earth. (And I have no clue what would happen to the Earth if they failed. I hadn't even thought about the alternate universes.) If Ronan had failed, he would have died or gone mad. Which is worse? And Dairine would have been turned into a crater by the LP if she had failed or not had backup.

In regards to the numbers of failed Ordeals, I didn't find specific numbers, but in HW they do mention that it is quite a few.
Pg 80

"A lifesaver, too, under special circumstances," Tom said, looking somber. "You two know how many children go missing in this country every year."
"Thousands."
"It's not all kidnappings and runaways," Tom said. "Some of those kids are out on their Ordeals... and because they don't have time to become good with the Speech, they get in trouble with the Lone Power that they can't get out of. And they never come back."

[Birdhead]

(you don't mind if I call you that, do you? I saw some people say that in the earlier ToGR pages.)

Of course I don't mind, it's my name after all!

Dairine's all started with her traveling spell, specifically to Mars.

I totally wasn't thinking of Dairine's Ordeal when I mentioned that, but that's definitely true! Although it's not quite the same thing, because Dairine's first spell really did just take her to Mars. Her second spell, on the other hand... she wanted to beat up Darth Vader, right? Make a difference. Her second spell took her to somewhere that could happen, although it's not constructed around a particular goal the way Nita and Kit's was.

I always figured that if a wizard on Ordeal failed their Ordeal, it meant they died. Because they have to solve a problem, and there are two outcomes: either they succeed, or they fail. And if they are still alive after a failed attempt, then they would likely try again, until they can't try any more. Make any sense?
Because if Nita and Kit failed, they would have been killed by the LP, or died in the subsequent disaster that would befall the Earth.

Well, not necessarily - we've seen a few occasions where a wizard could fail without dying: for example, Nita could have refused to sing in the Song; if Darryl failed his Ordeal (failed to say the Oath) it seems to me that not much would have happened; Ronan could just have chosen not to take the Sea in (in a way, Ronan completing his Ordeal is much more risky than him not completing it: he could just as easily have burned out, passing his Ordeal but still not becoming a wizard, maybe also dying in the effort.) In fact, any wizard might burn out or reject their wizardry in their Ordeal and fail that way without necessarily dying.

On the other hand (she said hopefully), it also seems to me that many of the kids who die on their Ordeal might nevertheless have completed it. We see a lot of situations in the books where someone willing to pay life price can do just about anything nifty, and a wizard on their Ordeal, with all that power and belief...

[Garrett Fitzgerald]

See this old thread

Fixed the spoiler markup and some of the unicode issues -- didn't clean up the links, though.

[Wolf]

Hey! So let me cut in before you guys go onto the next topic... I brought most of my books with me to college because I simply couldn't resist... what's the next due date for the next book? I have work most of the day tomorrow which means I could put a nice dent in the work.

And even though I know we should save this for A Wizard Alone, so maybe let's just think about it till then... but don't you think if Daryl didn't complete his Ordeal (saying the Oath) he wouldn't have been an Abdal? And then wouldn't the earth/universe not be as safe because that's one less rare demi-power they would have gotten? Although I guess there would have been an Ordeal or Mission or something of the like to try and combat the power the LP would have gotten from achieving that...

[illiriam]

Alla said:

The idea would be a book and a discussion every week and a half or so - that way we get all of the books done before AWoM comes out. Suggested discussion starting dates could be:

SYWTBAW: 17th January
DW: 27th January
HW: 6th Feb
AWAb: 16th Feb
AWD: 26th Feb
AWAl: 8th March
AWH: 18th March
W@W: 28th March

So there is still a bit of time left for SYWTBAW discussion.

In regard to Darryl, I don't think that his failing would have impacted his status as an abdal, assuming he survived after failing. They are independent of one another. I look forward to continuing this more in depth when we reach AWAl.

I don't necessary think that death equals failing though. There would definitely be incidents where a wizard gave up their life and still completed the task. But I see most young wizards trying until they either succeed, or can't try again. And they wouldn't be able to try again if they died. So it's kind of like how all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Dying doesn't equal failing, but usually failing would mean dying. Does that make sense?

[SilveredBlue]

yes, it makes sense, illiriam: Nita would have died to save the Crossings and Sker'ret in W@W, yet her death wouldn't have been a failure. (Although, actually, without her Memeki would not have known what to say, thus ending the Universe, etc, but besides that.)

Spoilers are for W@W...just in case. Don't want to spoil stuff for any new-to-the-series fan.
Okay, so I need to get DW out of the library! *orders it* Being able to put stuff on holds is awesome. I get so many more books that way, since our physical library is small, yet it's connected to a lot of others, so I can basically get anything I want on hold- like 15 PG Wodehouse books.

Also: Illiriam, thanks for all the quotes to back up our discussion!

Edit: Somehow, the abbriviation for "Wizards at War...just in case" turned into an email address. Huh. Be warned, I tried to fix it but it may come back. It's not my email, or anyone's.

[Stormwind]

One thing I always wondered was if Nita and Kit had the timeslide, why is it that later the sun goes out? Weren't timeslides meant to make it as if something never happened? It's on pg 111 "This way," Tom said, "if you buy some time, you could be in the city all day, all week if you wanted -- but once you activate the piece of time you're holding, you're back then." The only other reason that I thought this was interesting was because in TBONWM with the oil spill the wizard talking to Rhiow said that if they got the timeslide they requested then it would be "What oil spill?"
I guess that reading further in the paragraph on 111 Tom adds that they'll be somewhere along the path that they traveled that day, so I guess it just means it lets you repeat the day kind of like a timeturner from HP?

Any thoughts?

[96bookworms]

Oh! Hi! I've always wanted to have a discussion about these books, but I never got my book club to vote for it ( all 4 of them.....) I was pretty confused about the timeslide too, but I think that it just reverses time, and then you get to go through it again.....but i'm not sure.....it's like being in two places at once, I think.I cant think of anything else to say right now, but that I'm really excited about it.

[SilveredBlue]

Okay...I think these were two different kinds of timeslides. In SYWTBAW, the timeslide had the effect of letting you be in two places at once- hence the end scene with the battery. It was the YW version of the Time-Turner: if Nita and Kit HAD been in the city all week and then 'slid' back to Saturday, then they could've met themselves in the city all that week. Which would not be good think for their mental health, I'm assuming. (If you go back in time and drive yourself too mad to work a spell, how'd you drive yourself mad? and that sort of thing.)

In TBONWM, the timeslide most likely "patched" the oilspill with a piece of time duplicated from a universe where the oil never spilled- like Kit and Nita did in AWAb, after the Formori destroyed Bray. (At least I think it was Bray.)

There is also the possibility that the timeslide was the same kind: it allowed the wizards to go back and prevent the spill in the first place-it never happened, thus Rhiow could say "What oil spill?" because it would not have happened in the non-wizardly minds. (I'm assuming the Manual remembers for those wizards who need the info and have it "wiped" from their brains by the prevention of the spill.

[illiriam]

Well, I figured I would get in one more post before the switchover to DW, at least according to that schedule.
I went back to the beginning of the book, and went through it more closely.
I can't remember what thread it was, where we were talking about the nature of the Speech, and changing things (maybe lying in the Speech? I'll look it up later and add the line there) but I found a quote that I found particularly telling, for pretty much everything later on.
DD describes the Speech as being THE central thing about being a wizard. Sure wizardry gives the power, but the Speech is behind it all. On pg 60, where Nita and Kit are about to start their spell, they are going over their names and Kit tells Nita how important accurately naming yourself is.

Kit shrugged, but he looked uneasy. "A spell is saying that you want something to happen," he said. "If you say your name wrong-"

Additionally, on pg 13, where Nita is looking over the qualities of a wizard, the Manual brings up a love of words.

Wizards love words...their love for and fluency with words is what makes wizards a force to be reckoned with. Their ability to convince a piece of the world - a tree, say, or a stone - that it's not what it thinks it is, that it's something else, is the very heart of wizardry.

I just found this very interesting. While wizardry provides the punch, a wizard is nothing if they don't have a way with the Speech.

And one of my favorite quotes, which is a huge foreshadowing, from pg 65 (I am in quote mode! haha)

The formula for their goal, though longer than either of their names had been, seemed to take less time to say - and even stranger, it began to sound like much more that just finding a pen and being left alone. It began to taste of starfire and night and motion, huge and controlled, utterly strange.

What makes this a good book is that I loved it and became infatuated in this world with this first installment when I first read it when I was Nita's age. What I feel makes it a great book is the fact that even at twenty I can still find new things in the book, and not only be amazed at the way these wizards work, but try to understand the structure and logic behind it all.