SYW Group Reading Discussion Thread

[Wolf]

Alright, I'm in. When do we start? =D

As for the calendar... I like the idea of making a different thread for each book- but (if my own sites were active any more) I'd've made a big new "Group Reading" section, and different forums go there. Buuuut I'm not an admin of a site any more, and that would be confusing to everybody else. :P So I'm thinking we go to every book's section and for the topic name, we do something like Group Reading: Name of Book. And we could set dates for when the next chapter/set of chapters should be read.

We'd have to be done by the time AWoM comes out, of course... erm... which is... (I can't believe I'm making a new tab to make sure I've got the date right) April 14th. Okay. Which is... (more checking) just over THREE MONTHS away!

WE BETTER START CRACKIN'!!!! ^_^

[alla]

Yepyep - this thread was the group reading thread from when we tried to start it up last year. I'd say we can keep SYWTBAW discussion here, and follow Wolf's suggestion for other thread topics.

Wolf: Start now! - see my previous post for suggested dates

[SilveredBlue]

So, let's start discussing then! All right, here's some things I noticed: in Nita's manual, there's the Horseman's Word (gets the attention of any of the genus Equus)- so maybe there's an Aluilrian word, and that's what Ponch said to Rhiow (or was it Urruah?)! And are horses wizards? I wonder what their Choice was like.

Also, in the manual sections, it mentioned "Familars and Helpmeets" and "bridling the Nightmare." Now this seems like something that never turned up later, but maybe it will, because right after that it's "what to say to the Transcendant Pig" and that definately came up.

Is the Nightmare in any fairytales, or is it just a play on words?
And where did the 'credit' that Kit and Nita accrued to pre-pay for the timeslide come from, in the Reseach and Development chapter?

[Tobiasscrabble]

They got

The credit for bringing fred into their realm he also had info about the bright book being missing or maybe the had ordeal credit

[Stormwind]

And where did the 'credit' that Kit and Nita accrued to pre-pay for the timeslide come from, in the Reseach and Development chapter?

I've always thought that their bringing Fred through with the information about the Naming Of Lights was the reason they had a credit already... I think it would have been hard to justify them getting a credit for a timeslide otherwise... seeing as with later Ordeals a timeslide isn't always necessary or needed...

I'm glad we're trying to get the discussions going again... I missed them and was regularly checking to see if anyone had posted more...

[SilveredBlue]

Ah, I see. Thanks, Stormwind and Tobias! Okay, so I found info about a Night-Mare here. Possibly it's related, and since Nita can now lucid dream, perhaps she will encounter the Mare in a dream. Maybe.

I noticed that Annie's 'finding' qualities are a foreshadowing of Ponch's ability later on. Maybe he picked them up from the Swale dogs!

Anyone else have any thoughts on SYW?

[Wolf]

Maybe all dogs have the 'finding' ability, and Ponch just developed his a lot more before he discovered what he was? Possibly Annie and Monty can do the same thing if they try to develop it and 'find' places more, like Ponch did, instead of just objects. (And people, and Tom and Carl joked when he met Nita and Kit. =P )

[Nathan]

"Bridling the Nightmare" probably won't be developed in any great detail in the YW books, as it has been dealt with in the Middle Kingdomsthis old USENET postthis old thread of mine for a compendium of other such connexions between DD's various universes, with the proviso that a fair number of the links are now broken Many thanks to Garrett for fixing this (though the amusingly inaccurate tag is still there).

Regarding the possibility of equine wizards, I too find it a fascinating possibility, though I fear that members of Equus may not be high up enough on the food chain to have achieved eclesis

[SilveredBlue]

Yes, it is questionable. You have the horses who seem possess an almost diabolical intelligence, and then you have the ones who seem to have a head filled with little more than bone. (Remember Nita's experience with the horses in AWAb.)

My own theory is that animals that are forced to use all their skills to survive, such as feral or wild animals, achieve eclisis quicker/more than their tame cousins. Although dogs, Ponch particularly, are the exception to that general rule,since they had a joint Choice (or unresolved Choice- whichever way you look at it) and thus achieved eclisis alongside their humans.

Horses, now, don't seem to have made their Choice with humans. In fact, they almost seem not to have made a Choice at all. Perhaps only a specific species within Equus made the Choice and thus have the duty to look out for their less sentient fellows.

Okay, here's some more observations I made: "Artificer", the word used by Fred in refering to either the One or one of the Powers, means 1) skilled craftsman in a trade 2) someone who is the first to think of or make something 3)an enlisted man responsible for the upkeep of small arms and machine guns etc. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/artificer)

The last definition is curious. I keep seeing wizards as weapons (or pieces in a chess game- HW!) and the Powers as their 'maintainers', as it were. Hmm.

Also, "entasis", the art at which Tom is expert, is defined as: "A slight convexity or swelling, as in the shaft of a column, intended to compensate for the illusion of concavity resulting from straight sides."

Now why would "tailoring a spell to have the maximum result for the minimum output" be called THAT?

[illiriam]

Well if you think of it, tailoring a spell could be using words, or adding or taking away or switching, to shape the magic into the form that you want it to take. Like making something concave look convex? Like an optical illusion?
I totally just pulled that out of nowhere. It is likely an existing word that DD took and created her own meaning for.

One thing that I like from the book is how Nita and Kit, while brave and have powers, still have weaknesses. Its something that they carry with them. In one section, Nita is talking to Kit and is trying, and failing, to hold back tears. They do their best, and they do it well. But despite being wizards and having magic, they are still just scared kids trying to change the world. And maybe if they were by themselves they might not have made it, although I think they are strong enough to complete their mega-Ordeal alone, but by having each other to lean on, they find strength they didn't know they had.

Also, I think they were sooo lucky that Fred was the extra power they called in. Being new, they really couldn't know what could be pulled in, they could have messed up, they could have gotten something really bad. Which they kind of knew.
"Look, we'll make a hole through the spell big enough for something friendly to fall into, and we'll take potluck."
Small enough for something friendly? I think that bad things can be small too...

[Birdhead]

Also, I think they were sooo lucky that Fred was the extra power they called in. Being new, they really couldn't know what could be pulled in, they could have messed up, they could have gotten something really bad. Which they kind of knew.
"Look, we'll make a hole through the spell big enough for something friendly to fall into, and we'll take potluck."
Small enough for something friendly? I think that bad things can be small too...

True! On the other hand, a spell always works, and even though what they think they're doing is taking potluck, in that scene they're still within, as it were, their finding/fetching spell (Nita getting her pen back, Kit getting an aura.) In a sense, the rest of the novel is the process of completing that spell, or of that spell working itself out (which is interesting because in the rest of the novels wizardry isn't quite so metaphorical - i.e. if you lose your keys you do a spell and your keys pop up; you don't do a spell, check your pockets again, and there are your keys.) So although what they got needn't necessarily have been nice, the spell requires that it's helpful: so Fred coming along is actually a part of that spell.

[SilveredBlue]

Ooh, good ideas, Birdhead! One long spell for the whole Ordeal...

Now what I'd like to know is, is this level of difficulty typical for an Ordeal? I know that this was something new, what they did with editing the Bright Book and sealing away the Dark Book, so maybe this is a really tough one.

Yet in AWAb, when Nita asks Ronan about his Ordeal (see this thread about whether his was an Abstainee Ordeal or not), both he and Nita seem to think it was the same level of difficulty. His was a spell that could drive the user mad or strip away his wizardry.

Sooo...is this uncommon or not? Wouldn't people notice if the Sun went out routinely, et cetera, as a result of Ordeals? And what happens with the failed Ordeals? If Kit and Nita had died, the Universe would have dissolved, or Manhattan become one with its 'dark' cousin. So are there a lot of dead Universes and Manhattans (whichever's worse ) from failed Ordeals?

[Wolf]

Okay, remember the many "Earths" of Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy series? When they initiated the "Earth Mark 2," it started off in the same instant it was destroyed. Maybe the Universe does something like that? I'm also in the line of thinking that there are many parallel Universes to our own... so... maybe there are many dimensions where there are "dead earths," and other "dead" planets that are different in "our" Universe?

Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I'm really tired. =P (It's 2:20 am right now)

[Birdhead]

Nita thinks Ronan's Ordeal is the same level of difficulty. I'm not sure that's the same thing as significance. What Nita and Kit did wasn't necessarily harder, but, IMO, it was more significant: it made a permanent change to the LP. (And Dairine did another one in her Ordeal, but we all know she's special.) If Ronan fails his Ordeal, well... A lot of Irish people go away. But the world doesn't significantly change, even Ireland may not change all that much. (Of course, Ronan happens to have the WD inside him, so Ronan dying, even if he completes his Ordeal, could be an ongoing problem. But she's also off being Peach at the time, so.) Similarly, what happens if Darryl fails his Ordeal? He maybe goes on being autistic. But he might still be an Abdal, if he survived it despite failing (someone confirm to be whether that's possible?)

I do wonder how common failed Ordeals are, though. I can see there being a lot of Ordeals where probationary wizards die, but nevertheless complete their Ordeals. But wizards are called to Ordeal because there's a problem to which they are the answer, right? I mean, Ronan's Ordeal is quite specific to him - it's an emotional challenge because he doesn't like colonial powers (go Ronan.) Wizards are presented with a problem which they can solve, but which also gives them Personal Growth - the problem needs them and they need it. (This may be true of most wizardly practise: look at Nita and Darryl in Alone. He needed her, and she needed him. Poor old Kit was only the right answer because he comes with hangers on like Ponch and Nita.)

[SilveredBlue]

Nita thinks Ronan's Ordeal is the same level of difficulty. I'm not sure that's the same thing as significance. What Nita and Kit did wasn't necessarily harder, but, IMO, it was more significant: it made a permanent change to the LP.

a-HAH! That clears things up! I had a 'click!' moment when I read that, Tui! (you don't mind if I call you that, do you? I saw some people say that in the earlier ToGR pages.) I got confused with those two qualities. Excellent deduction, Watson!

If Ronan fails his Ordeal, well... A lot of Irish people go away.

If he failed, then those people never exsisted in the first place....I think. The old time-travel kill-your-grandfather paradox. Unless...maybe the Powers call in an older wizard, or keep an Advisory on stand-by for certain significant Ordeals (think AWAl) to come in and do damage control on the failed ones.

But Darryl might still be an Abdal, if he survived it despite failing (someone confirm to be whether that's possible?)

IF the LP somehow let him live....yes. He's an unknowing conduit, like a faucet: I don't think wizardry one way or the other affects that.

I do wonder how common failed Ordeals are, though.

I believe there's an in-canon answer: anyone have the book to look it up?