New Members Help Suggestion

[magicalmike]

My vote, 100% yes, it would be wonderfull to have especialy with the recent influx of newbies. Yeah i kinda read the forum FAQ about um (confession) a year after i joined. I just did not post mutch. I got a one liner warning and then i was a good little boy. My have i realy been here almost 4 years?!?

[wolf_wizard]

ummm, I was warned about posting pointless posts... not really pointless, just obsessing a bit on post count in a "contest" sort of thingy with vashmata, and for including one to many smileys.

Anyway, when I first joined, I looked up there and so, I think that if it's possible, without decreasing the bandwidth, then it would be awesome. So i really like that idea, as DD wouldn't really have to pay for it, and that would be pretty awesome.

[Sean L.]

And don't call her ignorant for not knowing that. This "Eve" platform is different than many platforms to use. It can be very complicated.

You can't expect everyone to look in the same places that you did when you joined. Many people may not know to look for these things at a forum.

There hasn't been any flaming of anyone so far, and no one's called anyone ignorant. If you think there has been, you need to reevaluate your definition of flaming.

That being said, I will logically approach this and rationally deconstruct your arguments.

Chronologically, they are as follows:

We should make a new member box because:

A.) It would be helpful if newbies could have more places to look for newbie-topics.

Response: I agree but I don't think you're going far enough. We should make a gigantic banner saying NEWBIES CLICK HERE BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE. Or maybe a popup that goes LINKS FOR NEWCOMERS. Possibly even a flashy flash site that is just tailored for newbie topics.

I mean, we could just stay with what we have, a nice .5"x 3' section of the forum called 'Newbie Zone: Frequently Asked Questions and Other Stuff', subtitled 'New here? Want to know how things work? Check the message threads here.' It seems to be specifically for newbies to go to see how things work, isn't even halfway down the page, and not in especially small font or anything; but hey, someone might miss it, so we should make a big sign in case we have those people that can't see too well.

B.) Non-newbies could check back on the rules more easily.

Response: I'm not a newbie, and I haven't checked the rules recently. But surprisingly, as a non-newbie, I know where the rules are. While most non-newbies may not be Einstein, most of them know where to find the rules...having been prompted to read them by Kathy or Garrett every once in a while :P. And if they haven't, then they probably haven't done anything wrong.

C.) The Dai Stihó thread doesn't show up in recent posts. Great threads for newbies disappear/are closed.

Response: Okay. It must be terrible when a thread is neglected like that and occasionally doesn't have people posting to it. It's not like there are any other threads on this site that are neglected and not posted to...oh wait.

Also, when I click on "Newbie Zone" I find 'Dai Stihó', 'Books FAQ', 'Board FAQ', `and actually, quite a few other great topics, including 'Please unlock a thread!' and 'How to read a julian date?' among others. I'm using Firefox 2.0 on a Mac running OS X 10.5 though, so I don't know if this is expanded functionality because I'm running a good browser on a good system. Maybe IE doesn't display this.

E.) Some newbies may not realize there is a newbie section and know nothing about forums at all.

Response: So there are completely new people that have never been to a forum before? Golly whiz, lets see what other sites do. Portkey is one, Whateveresque is another, ProPilots Rumor Network yet another...and interestingly, none of them have 3"x3" squares with newbie links. They do, however, seem to have a small section of links to a newbie section, much like...oh right, this forum :-D.

F.) New members don't post.

Response: The internet has has popularized an activity known as lurking. It's a highly developed evolutionary trait that may result from many factors: some are shy, some are quiet, some people don't want to post in certain topics - you really think that people aren't posting because of the lack of a 3"x3" box of newbie links?

G.) Eve is complicated.

Response: Er, no. Seen other forums? Unless the forum changed suddenly in the last five minutes I was looking at it, we don't hide links for newbies or make you solve a riddle to post, a newbie just has to scroll down slightly to see the newbie zone link. It's a standard forum setting like all the other settings. Furthermore, see response to E.

H.) a 3x3" box will make a GIGANTIC difference to newbies.

Response: I realize that squares are better than rectangles in terms of having more area for the same perimeter, but I don't know if it will be a gigantic difference. My math is fuzzy though, feel free to correct.

I.) Parts that aren't used should be gotten rid of.

Response: I agree with this. The AWoM chapter widget should probably be updated, the banner should be updated to reflect Chapter 4 is out, and I'm kinda curious when the next chat is. However, that doesn't mean you should scrap the AWoM countdown for newbie links.

On a completely serious note, thinking about the graphical user interface that forums present, it becomes pretty obvious that the thing you want the most people to see is that which is most useful to them. In this case, it's most useful for the majority of the members to see the most recent messages, which they may want to comment on. But most members are not newbies, and don't constantly need the newbie links blinking at them, so the overall utility of the box would be diminished. For subscribers, it would be useful to know when the next chapter will be posted, because we put money down to read that.

What I would suggest is actually a link to the newbie zone during/after user registration, so when they register, they will immediately be directed towards the FAQs and introduction page. That way, only newbies that really need it will get the in-the-face link, but they'll know where it is if they need to refer back to it; other members won't be constantly annoyed with something they don't need.

[spyells]

I can see what you're saying Sean, but I don't feel that you had to get so sassy about it. *sighs*

Anyway even if we didn't have a newbie box I still like you suggestion about making sure the newbies get the link to the board faq after they register. It's important that they are exposed to the rules even if they don't follow them. I still remember when I joined. Before I joined this site I posted in proper English like I do now, but when I was on other forums they would use internet slang and I would be criticized for using proper English. So when I joined this site I assumed it was the same and I tried to learn the slang so I could use it. I was certainly flamed for that. I was confused but after being here a few months I was able to get use to it. But I didn't even know that was written in the faq then. I didn't even know where it was. And many people don't lurk especially if they aren't using a computer at home. And I know because I didn't have a computer at home back then so I didn't have time to lurk. And even if they are not everyone does the same things. It would just be helpful to have the faqs already there and handy so that the moderators wouldn't have to post it every time someone does something wrong. But I know you will probably give me a smart mouthed answer for this response too.

[EricG1793]

You know, maybe the FAQs could be part of the portion of text that people click "I Agree" on upon registration. That way, everything's RIGHT there, and they agree to it.

I don't think we need to go that drastic, though. Besides, that's a TON of stuff to read, so they'd just click I Agree without reading most of it.

That being said, I will logically approach this and rationally deconstruct your arguments.

-Sean

One little comment: That's exactly the kind of phrasing that gets me going (in an angry way). I'm in an exceptionally good mood now, so I won't go any further.

Response to your part C:

The Dai Stiho thread was used as an example. Other threads often disappear or get closed as well.

Response to your part H:

Excuse me?!!

You exaggerate what I said.

I said: "Just a little, 3x3 (inch) box would make SO much difference to newbies."

I also said would, not will. We still haven't had an admin's opinion on this.

I DO realize, however, that you weren't directly quoting me. However, I said that basic thing, and you exaggerated what I said and picked on that idea. If you're going to pick on someone's idea - please, quote it correctly. Don't exaggerate it.

On the other hand, great argument about not getting rid of the AWoM countdown. I don't want to get rid of it now, either. I agree with you on that note.

I also support newbies somehow getting a link to the FAQs after they register.

I agree with spyells's agreeing with me. For new or old members alike, wouldn't it be easier to just scroll to the top of the page and have a direct link, right there, to be able to access the FAQs?

Someone (I think it was spyells) mentioned that some of the new members may not be posting because they don't know how. I will mention that in my welcome letter, once I make my full return and start sending it out again.

Changing subject again:

I have found another good spot for the links!

On the main Forums page. Look at where it says "Messages from the Forum Administrator". What we could do is something in that format. However, for the placing: scroll down to the "Dai Stiho to our newest forum members!" box. The bar containing the newbie links (again, in the format of the "Messages from the Forum Administrator" bar) could go there, right below the list of new members.

If I didn't explain that clear enough, please tell me.

[Tuttle]

Originally posted by EricG1793:
I agree with spyells's agreeing with me. For new or old members alike, wouldn't it be easier to just scroll to the top of the page and have a direct link, right there, to be able to access the FAQs?

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that being any easier than going through the newbie zone. It'd even be the same number of clicks because the FAQs are separate so as to be easier to read and understand. I'm pretty sure Kathy explained that reasoning of them being separate before even, though not positive (sorry if I'm wrong to everyone.)

I see it being no easier- you have the same difficulty of finding the information either way (a bit more scrolling one way, I admit) since its the same thing of clicking on one link to see other links to click on one of to read what it says.

If you argue this to mean you should have links to each individual one I also see this not helping- though it would at that level be easier, though not easier to find.

The problem both ways to me is that you're adding in information that in this form has no relevance to a majority of people and beyond that, is easily accessable already. When you learn how to make a gui, you take into account not making things too busy and not putting in extra information. Crazy colours make stuff harder to read, bad spacing does, and having too much there and overall too busy makes it harder to find what you want. This also makes the page a little more annoying.

Yes, this doesn't have much against the link on the top, that one I see a less of a problem. I see that as actually less likely to be seen than the box that's on the page linking to the Newbie Zone. I know I personally don't really use that area at all.

--

Providing a link probably makes sense, including it in with the ToS seems counterproductive for both the ToS and the FAQs knowing how few people read either when they get too long.

--

Originally posted by EricG1793:
On the main Forums page. Look at where it says "Messages from the Forum Administrator". What we could do is something in that format. However, for the placing: scroll down to the "Dai Stiho to our newest forum members!" box. The bar containing the newbie links (again, in the format of the "Messages from the Forum Administrator" bar) could go there, right below the list of new members.

The placement on the gateway actually seems preferable to me, less in the way, easier to avoid. I'm not sure it'd do much, but I don't see the same problems there.

--

Also, I do need to comment on people throwing the word flaming around when people don't agree. People not agreeing is not flaming. People being harsh in their arguments is not flaming. People not thinking about what they're saying insulting you and your ideas because of that, and generally not being reasonable is.

To quote from wikipedia

An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. Occasionally, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls". Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject.

We all need to learn to be less harsh on people we disagree with at times, but saying someone's flaming for criticising your idea seems to be something that also needs to be fixed.

--

In reply to being afraid they'd be locked. I'm pretty sure our mods will keep the threads which are that useful for newbies from being locked.

--

Also, I need to comment on saying that Eve is complicated.
Like Sean said its a normal forum thing, its the same set up as other forums, and its a basic tree structure that websites in general use. I don't see how that's complicated- yes I'm someone who this isn't my first forum and I like my computers, but I don't see how its that complicated.

--

oh yeah, a comment to a reply to a reply

Originally posted by spyells:

And many people don't lurk especially if they aren't using a computer at home. And I know because I didn't have a computer at home back then so I didn't have time to lurk.

Sean's comment is still valid. Even though there are these people who can't be on a computer at home, there still are large groups of people who lurk. Not everyone has that problem, I'd say probably a majority don't seeing as reported here
for one says 5 years ago 55% of Americans had a web-connected computer and 76% of school aged children had access to a home computer. When you take into account that it was up 50% from 2001, and in general the rate that computers popularity have been growing, it does not seem reasonable to argue that lurking is not part of why people don't post.

Yes, there are people without home computers. Yes some of these don't want to lurk and would have problems posting if they don't know how to. I won't deny that, I will deny that you can use that to argue that a noticeable portion of people aren't choosing not to post.

--

Originally Posted by spyells:

But I know you will probably give me a smart mouthed answer for this response too.

You know, Sean was trying to get his point across, he might have been harsh, but that doesn't mean it was just a smart mouthed "'m better than you" he makes good points.

--

Originally posted by EricG1793:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally Posted by Sean L:

That being said, I will logically approach this and rationally deconstruct your arguments.

One little comment: That's exactly the kind of phrasing that gets me going (in an angry way). I'm in an exceptionally good mood now, so I won't go any further.
</div>[quote]

Probably partially out of place, but what's the problem with that phrasing. He's going about it logically arguing where the weaknesses of what you're saying are. He did deconstruct your arguments to at least some degree. This doesn't mean he's even saying the thing you're supporting is wrong, he's saying your arguments don't work- this is the reply that shows how they don't work. This is a good thing to do even if you agree with the topic you're arguing over. Rationally looking at both sides is how you win a debate.

I think that's all. And I hope that's clear. There are some ramblings off yes, but I think it gets my point across...

Edit: Fixing spacing some.

[spyells]

I never said that disagreeing with someone was flaming. Flaming is exactly what you did to Eric on his last suggestion. By practically going off on him. That definition described perfectly well what you did. Also to Sean and to you Tuttle, you don't have to be smart mouthed to have a nice intelligent conversation. That's all I was implying to Sean. And like I said I agree with his suggestion, I don't see a problem with it. But he could be a little more respectful with his replies.

I'm honestly beginning to think that you don't ever agree with anything Tuttle. I'm not saying that my suggestion is the best in the world. In fact part of the reason I posted it was to get feed back from all of you, this way not only would we see if this was a good suggestion but we could also make it better. We are all a part of this forum community, and starting topics like this is almost like a way for us to have a meeting on what can be done to improve the forums, and what can be done to keep them from changing in a bad way.

Also so far there have been a few people that agree with the idea and some people have also posted more ideas. I think that's good. It shows that we all care about this forum, and to a certain extent each other. I also mentioned flaming in my first post because on this site as well as others in which I am a member, flaming takes place when a few ignorant members think that everything they say is right and that everyone else is wrong. I only put that there to try to ensure that we would have a nice intelligent discussion without anyone's feelings getting hurt, or any moderators having to intervene for peace. I hope I explained all of that well so we can all continue having nice discussions.

[wolf_wizard]

yes, I agree with you, Tuttle and Sean are KIND OF going off. a little bit. but so are you. Please lets try to advoid criticizing to harshly, and try to advoid statements like

i'm beginning to think that you don't ever agree with anything

because this is just the starting of an arguement, and more fighting- not a DISCUSSION. I agree that some people could post a little more respectfully, but it doesn't mean that we should now start argueing about it. The oppinion was stated. perhaps not in a positive way, but it was stated.

Spyells: no one was saying that you were saying that your idea is the best idea there is... we're all just stating our opinions; right?

I mean, I think we ought to try to advoid general statements like "you never agree to anything" because, I don't think that that statement is adequate; just because the person doesn't agree on this topic doesn't mean that they don't agree with anything.

Spyells: please don't think i'm picking on you. I'm trying to get my message across, and am simply trying to smooth things out. and i think it was wrong of you to say that. It's wrong to make generalizations, and when i say this, I'm speaking to everyone; not just you.

Please, i hope that no one takes this as flaming; I'm just trying to re-establish a nice conversation without any insults. Please.

Peace.

[spyells]

I don't take it as flaming. But I have been a member of this site for more than a year and I've noticed that certain members don't like to agree with anything. But you're right and I apologize. Thanks for trying to keep peace Wolf_Wizard before this becomes an argument.

[Tuttle]

Spyells, probably part of why it seems like I don't agree with anything is that I don't find it worth posting if all I'd be saying is that I agree. I usually post on ideas if they're ones which I have a problem with. Most of them, including this one, I think can come to something which would work for everyone. I just need to still say, these are the problems I see, fix these and you have a good idea. I think the idea on the gateway page is a good one. I said that. I'm still not sure it'd do anything, but I see no problems with it at least. I said that in that last post you're replying to. It doesn't seem worth it to me to post agreeing since it doesn't really have substances to me- if its a good idea in the eyes of the mods and admins, then it'll be implemented I don't have any reason to post unless others are arguing against it and I have a good reply to the counterpoints. And while I'm not actually old enough here to really say it, Poot doesn't approve of useless posts - it speeds up entropy.

To me, I think the way I can do most good in terms of the suggestions is pointing out those criticisms. I've been getting harsher on a lot of the suggestions I realize because I've been making similar points to other people often as well as here. When I noticed I was going too far on that I started pulling back and have been working to be criticising but in ways that allow for improvements large amounts.

You probably take offence to me taking little statements you say and not just disagreeing but posting numbers. That's how my brain works, that's how I function is with numbers. I don't work the same as many people here- am way more left brained than most here. That's part of why I'm so very much on the criticising ideas- because as someone on the other side, someone who's studying the computers instead of the writing, I can point out problems I see that others don't.

On the last post I made to Eric, I can't see how its flaming. I absolutely don't think I'm better than people here, I think I have had a different upbringing and am at a different point in development which means I'm better at some things and way worse at others. I completely admit that. I didn't agree with his idea. I wanted to explain to him why it wasn't a good one in my mind and I did so. I also admit that I was too harsh on him. I actually later apologised for it because I knew I was way too harsh. If it really is that bad, can you tell me what's so bothersome so I can try to avoid it (well I can't promise if it would mean I can't do any suggesting but I'd at least take it into account). But I don't think I'm better, I don't think my opinions are the only valid ones, and I try to be constructive even if harsh- I don't see where it goes to flaming. I admit I have gone close in other posts by mistake (I'm sorry again for calling you stupid way back when in the thread when you were talking about the harshness black people have to deal with. Though I still say hiding behind your skin colour rather than dealing with the problem is stupid.).

Originally Posted by spyells:
Also to Sean and to you Tuttle, you don't have to be smart mouthed to have a nice intelligent conversation. That's all I was implying to Sean.

Which I completely agree with. But it sometimes feels like people won't listen when you're disagreeing if you aren't slightly smart mouthing- sometimes its the best idea to be sarcastic and such. And I know I at least read your reply about him smart mouthing you as saying that none of what he says is intelligent, that he's just smart mouthing you, which is totally not true. I know you agreed with some of what he said, but it sounded like that to me. And it really almost feels like you (general)'d be not listening to him as much if he wasn't smart mouthing since he's otherwise harsh on people and is somewhat not taken seriously by people who disagree because they think he's too insulting. (And don't take that as me insulting you, it really does seem like that though.)

If I'm being so unhelpful overall with the forum then how could I do better while taking into account I want to also be making this forum have more intelligent conversation because there sometimes doesn't seem to be enough of that -instead just random off topic chatter without huge amounts of thought often. I'm not going to change who I am for you, but I'll take into account suggestions.


It bothers me that whenever someone suggests anything they think they need to add 'don't flame me' because in this community you don't need to and it just is annoying to me at least. It'd be nicer to just not bother saying it because I don't see people flaming you if you don't. But people will be harsh on your ideas- that's how you weed out the best ideas and improve the others. You need to be harsh so as to not just implement every little thing. Sean had a good comment in another thread about not letting you ego get in the way because it will be hit- that's something to learn. I'm not saying your egotistical at all but I'm saying that in general here learning the separation between you and your ideas seems necessary as the lack of it seems to be part of why people are so afraid of flaming.

Wolfy, I also don't see how I'm going off at all in that last post. I was saying I disagree that's not going off... Otherwise, thank you for trying to keep this from getting into an argument. And your point about general statements I agree with beyond the example being on my side.

And I'm not just agreeing to prove that I don't always disagree. I'm agreeing because its worth agreeing if there's other reasons to post.


This was off topic I know, but seemed worth posting anyways. And I don't have anything on topic to say since I already shared my point of view.

[alla]

Woah, now... I don't look in on this discussion for a day, and it escalates .

I made my suggestion a day or so ago in an effort to see what a pleasant discussion with some of the members here would be like, however it doesn't seem to have worked.

For those of you who have been around for a while and got their backs up at Sean's post, may I point out that that is the tone of posting that he usually uses, and you have been around for long enough to have noticed that.

I've got a couple of things that I read that I would like to add to:

1) I agree with Tuttle re: the lurking dilemma. I have a computer at home, and I lurk for most of the time. I use computers at uni, and I lurk most of the time. Just because one person thinks that because she doesn't lurk, then no-one else would, doesn't meant that it would happen this way. Compared to some of the more prolific members here, there are people who lurk all of the time. There are people who will make one post to every ten that someone else makes. I personally do not post unless I have something to say that I think should be said.

2) Flaming.
Tuttle's definition is correct, and the more replies that I read within this thread, the more I think that there is flaming going on in both directions, but it is so minor that people are making mountains out of mole hills. There's a different take that people have in regards to tone and disagreements.

Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion.

Now, it seems to me that there has been a response of a kind like this from either side of the fence. That being said, in my honest opinion, most of the disagreeing responses have been in reasonable tones, and not meant to be insulting to those who have posted the ideas. If you get worked up about those kinds of posts, then maybe it would be an idea to step back, and have a think about what makes you so worked up about them. Learning how to read expression into text that has been written by someone else is an art that is learned through time, not something that someone can jump into a forum and simply know how to do. The internet is a great tool for misinterpretation. Try and see things from the other person's point of view before you dive in and assume that they are flaming.

3) Disagreeing on fine details.
New members. There are older members here who like things the way that they are (and believe it or not I am one of them). Do not take it to heart if we disagree with you. Quite often, we have thought these kinds of suggestions through in the past (in threads that have since been lost), and have already made up our minds over such suggestions.

Tuttle and Sean do have a point about the fact that it will still be the same amount of links just to get to the FAQ threads even if we do just put a link somewhere outside of the Newbie Zone. Perhaps including the 'Newbie Zone' in a link, rather than something just to the FAQs. The more I think about it now, the more I think that it may well just be an unnesscary link...

[spyells]

Originally posted by Tuttle:
(I'm sorry again for calling you stupid way back when in the thread when you were talking about the harshness black people have to deal with. Though I still say hiding behind your skin colour rather than dealing with the problem is stupid.)

I forgot about that. And that is so off topic it's not even worth mentioning. Well I accept your apology. All I have to say is don't be so harsh. There are ways to get your argument or your point across without being harsh. It is something that I am learning. I've learned from arguing with my grandmother and others who are hard to deal with to not 1. Be harsh, and 2. To let it go. If something they say or suggest or do really bothers me, I might let them know nicely but I won't get into an argument and I wont be harsh about it. But it takes time to get use to. I still have my smart mouthed moments in discussions and I know that I have a lot to work on. We can't expect anything to change over night, so I've learned to take it one day at a time.

I guess we can all just let this topic drop now. None of the moderators have commented so that must mean that the idea isn't worth trying. I thank all of you for your feedback and comments. Does anyone else have anything to add?

[wolf_wizard]

Hmm, no, not really. I'm happy that we're being civil(as in not getting onto each other about their ideas to much... ). i think that the point of the fact that there already is a box of newbie threads is rather valid, so, if one of the mods reads this, i would once again like to bring up the idea of showing a link when you sign up. i think that it could say under it that the same information can be accessed later under ........ which is in the places in which you post threads.

I just think that this would be a good idea, as it would let them know where they can find it; which is all they really need, and it wouldn't be in our way, and DD probably wouldn't have to pay for it. i just thought that it was a good idea when Sean and other people brought it up earlier; but i forgot to mention it in my efferts to advoid another arguement.


Dai All

[EricG1793]

I don't think there's FLAMING going on, either. We're not spotting specific people and picking on them. However, I understand why spyells asked to NOT be flamed in the first post. Nobody wants to be flamed, after all.

Well, what I consider flaming (I accept that probably nobody agrees with this, and that it's not what the dictionary says ) is when certain people spot any one person and pick on them (or their ideas), or, more like the dictionary says, picking on a person personally.

In THIS case, there is no flaming going on. If not minor flaming. But I think I KIND OF have been flamed in the past.... But, I apologized for any trouble I caused in Chat the last time it was open, so I'm at peace with everyone right now, and I'd love it to stay that way.

So, I'm going to forget this discussion. I'm going to forget whenever I may have been flamed. I'm going to forget that all my ideas (except one ) have been shot down. It's a clean slate for me from here on out.

Changing subjects slightly:

Furthermore, I think that we've gotten enough opinions from enough people. We've all put up our arguments, and arguments to other peoples' arguments. We've gotten a few ideas as to where to put such a box, and at which web addresses. We also came up with several links to put in the box.

As far as I'm concerned, this topic has served its purpose. Let us normal members now forget about it, and put it in the admins' hands, and they can do whatever they want with it. If we've talked and argued about it from pretty much every angle, why go on with arguing and go off topic? This thread has taken a gradual downfall, but it's wound up nearly as bad as other threads with my suggestions. Just trying to keep peace.

[TopCat]

I'm agree with your suggestion.
Do you know if DD published any book with the Wizzardry's Speech?
Please, give me as soon as possible the answer!!!