Wizardry: lies and the perception of truth

[Rysade]

[Birdhead]

Of course, a lot of the wizard's time is geared towards an elaborate avoiding of subjects, etc when talking with non-wizards- just think of Nita's behaviour around Annie, for example. This shows that it's the flat-out, literal interpretation of "lie" that is so important in the Speech- unlike other situations in similar books, it seems like hyperbole is pretty much out- even a wizard stretching the truth shows woefully, or something like that (A Wizard Abroad in the first chapter, I recall) Anyways, the point of this is that an avoidance of an issue or even the deliberate deception seems to be, if not okay, at least, uhm, permissable within strict guidelines. Biddy didn't even have problems with flat-out statements- she said "I don't know what you are talking about" the first time she's faced wtih it, which really is a literal lie.
You can tell I've been reading Abroad, huh?
The other Pratchettesque issue- I really think that that's not the intervention of the Powers, just the intervention of the human mind. I know I do it a lot- I'm convinced my purse can't get up and walk, yet I swear it's not where I left it- stuff like that. Or, that branch wasn't there- was it? Human fallibility being just that, it makes it easy to think yo're making a mistake- it doesn't take an outside influence.

Hmmm... that's really interesting. Can or can't the Powers lie? I agree, they shouldn't be able to- I just don't necessarily think it's them. Hmmm...
B

Tuibird in Aotearoa
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[TheClone]

I believe they talk about a memory erasing spell. So they could just tell them the truth then pull a memory erasing spell.

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[Buran]

Do you remember what Valeris said in Star Trek V?

"Not a lie. An omission."

Remember that Vulcans cannot lie, so if they want to avoid giving away a military secret, or a secret like wizardry, they will not lie, but will instead phrase their answer in such a way that it is true -- but doesn't give away anything that should not be told.

Post tenebras spero lucem - after dark I wish for light
(CC) This post has been closed-captioned for the hearing-impaired.

[Buran]

Originally posted by Buran:
Do you remember what Valeris said in Star Trek VI?

"Not a lie. An omission."

Remember that Vulcans cannot lie, so if they want to avoid giving away a military secret, or a secret like wizardry, they will not lie, but will instead phrase their answer in such a way that it is true -- but doesn't give away anything that should not be told.

_Post tenebras spero lucem_ - after dark I wish for light
_(CC) This post has been closed-captioned for the hearing-impaired._

Post tenebras spero lucem - after dark I wish for light
(CC) This post has been closed-captioned for the hearing-impaired.

[Quill]

Heh. IIRC, Vulcans can lie (it's Fuzzies that can't), but in the service of chthia, they usually refrain. If'n I had my books to hand I'd hunt up the proper quote.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

okay, lies are bad. lies perhaps encourage entropy. entropy is inevitable, but we don't want to speed it up if at all possible. i think that occasional appropriate lying is permissible if the result of *not* lying is that the wizard world is exposed and exploited in some manner that speeds up entropy more than if you just lied to cover something up. the answer to this question may be that "it depends"

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[Rysade]

When we hear a fantastic claim we say, "that's nice, prove it."
- Michael Schermer, Skeptic Society

I'm gonna apoligize again for how often I post. And also for how long my sig is, because I just LOVE THIS THING. Also, I fear i'm getting too deep for people, and if you want to keep the discussion light and airy, then feel free to shut me up by saying: "Oh, NO, Rysade's gonna go PHILOSOPHICAL again!"

[Nathan]

The closest thing to that quote (i.e., "I don't know what you are talking about") that I can actually find Biddy saying is "Now what do you mean by --" (her response to Nita's formal greeting of "Elder sister, in the One's name, honor and greeting."). This statement is an expression of her surprise at being "found out," but is far from being a lie.

Nathan

Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

But they do. Not that they want to. Remember when Nita got in trouble with her parents and knew she needed to go out again the next night (before she told them everything)? She spent quite some time battling herself and trying to find a way out, but lied to them in the end, which was something she did NOT enjoy. At least it wasn't in the Speech.

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh. I have been called a hundred names and will be called a
thousand more before the world goes dim and cold. I am hero.

[PK]

Wizards certainly can lie, but they aren't really supposed to -- I think Nita's "elaborate avoiding of subjects" around Annie, as Birdhead pointed out, is probably the standard strategy, but it's also worth noting that this is where we're shown that even when a wizards is not using the Speech her words can have an interesting effect, or perhaps be affected interestingly. I don't remember the exact wording, but Nita makes a couple of statements to explain her departure which are both true, but sound as if they're more connected than she means them to be -- and then discovers that she was telling the full truth after all and didn't know it, because she implied she was going to see Ronan and he turned out to be the wizard she was looking for.

Meh. My point is, I get the idea that wizardry (and the Speech, sometimes independently) may affect what you say, as well as what you say affecting reality.

Actually, since I can't look for the Abroad quotes right now -- I'm a bit more curious about the conversation between the Lone Power and Mike in SYW. The Defender certainly doesn't seem to have any trouble being misleading, but I'd suspect some rather skillful circumlocutions...

[no]

They can lie, but they can't lie in English. They noomally don't lie because they don't want to get too used to it. The books do mention a memory earsing wizardry. Some no-wizards do know about wizards, Nita's counselor knows about wizards, but he isn't one.

This my understanding of the books.

[sharklord]

You don't really have to lie...

You just don't tell the whole truth, or tell the truth in a way as to allow the person to decide his or her opinion. See AWAbroad when Nita tells her aunt that she is going to visit what's-his-face, she does so by saying two truths put togeather in a sentence to imply a different truth(sorry, brain dead--can't find quote). Maybe it's something like that...

Sharky

"Footsteps in the sand, show where you have been, show where you are going, but when they dissapear, never forget the possiblility of flight..."