Mysterious Words in SYWTBAW

[Nathan]

While re-reading SYWTBAW, I came across several words that I cannot find in the dictionary, but their usage and proximity to other words (the names of Greek and Hebrew letters and of Arabic numerals) makes me wonder if they are 'actual' words (possibly the names of letters and/or numbers in other languages) and were not invented by Diane for the book.

The words "rai" and "entath" in "Alpha-rai-entath-eight" (the description of Fred's "singularity-class temporospatial claudication"), p. 103.

The words "mesarrh" and "veignt" in "mesarrh-gimel-veignt-six" (the claudication type for the timeslide), p. 160.

The word "m'sedh" in "m'sedh-zayin six point three" (the description of Nita's pen), p. 174.

While it is possible that these are indeed invented words and that the 'actual' words are there to give a feel for what the invented words mean, I would not be at all surprised if at least one of these words turns out to be a non-invented word. I an very interested in other members' thoughts on the subject (as well as the identity of any of these words, of course).

Nathan

Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

[Nathan]

While re-reading SYWTBAW, I came across several words that I cannot find in the dictionary, but their usage and proximity to other words (the names of Greek and Hebrew letters and of Arabic numerals) makes me wonder if they are 'actual' words (possibly the names of letters and/or numbers in other languages) and were not invented by Diane for the book.

The words "rai" and "entath" in "Alpha-rai-entath-eight" (the description of Fred's "singularity-class temporospatial claudication"), p. 103.

The words "mesarrh" and "veignt" in "mesarrh-gimel-veignt-six" (the claudication type for the timeslide), p. 160.

The word "m'sedh" in "m'sedh-zayin six point three" (the description of Nita's pen), p. 174.

While it is possible that these are indeed invented words and that the 'actual' words are there to give a feel for what the invented words mean, I would not be at all surprised if at least one of these words turns out to be a non-invented word. I an very interested in other members' thoughts on the subject (as well as the identity of any of these words, of course).

Nathan

Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

[Penelope]

Hey, freaky! I was just about to post a related question...

In the "Research and Development" chapter, when we meet Peach, she says "Dos d'en agouni nikyn toude pheresthai," and Tom responds, "She only speaks in tongues to show off. Ignore her." Does anyone know if that's a real language, and if so, what it says? It looks vaguely Greek to me.

[Nathan]

I had assumed that these words were entirely invented, but I can actually identify three of the words: "Dos," "d'en" and "pheresthai." The only one of these words that appears to be Greek (and the only one that I think is Greek --my working hypothesis is that each of these words is in a different language) is "pheresthai," which seems to have a translation of "motion." (However, I obtained this translation in a rather unorthodox manner, finding in serendipitously in a translation of Cratylus after doing a searching for it with Google. I could not find my presumed transliteration of phi-epsilon-rho-epsilon-sigma-theta-alpha in the family Greek dictionary, though it is not a very comprehensive dictionary.)

The other two are a bit more straightforward, "dos" being "two" in Spanish or "of" in Portuguese and "d'en" being "of in" in French. However, these translations were obtained from Babelfish and are thus of dubious validity. In fact, the family French dictionary gives many other meanings for both "de" and "en" ("d'en" is a contraction of "de en") --"of" and "in" just happen to be the first meanings given.

This discussion reminds me of the 'pidgin Greek' in The Ogre Downstairs by Diana Wynne Jones, which consists of words written in Greek which turn out to be English words (and rather 'slangy' English words at that) when you pronounce them.

Nathan

Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

Edit: fixed quotation marks

[Rowen Avalon]

Just a comment on the meaning of "de" and "en." I am almost positive the translation of these words is right. The translation site just chose the simplest meanings.

As it says in A Wizard Abroad, the shortest words have the most meanings, which is why there are many meanings for them in your dictionary. These two words are used in place of many English prepositions, since English has many more than most languages, but are generally translated as above. These two words are also the Spanish words of the same meaning.

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

with my degree of education now, I cannot possibly speculate on the meanings of those mysterious words. However, I have noticed that Diane is a marvelously educated woman with a command of language like no other single person I have encountered before. (She'd put us all to shame in a Scrabble match! ) She puts little surprises (I've noticed) throughout all of her books, and I would never ever put it past her to research (or know of) real words as such to use in her writing to add to the real charm and realistic qualities of her novels. Keep researching those words as I am sure that at least a few are really from earthly non-wizard languages...

"It's a competitive world for
low budget people;
spending a dime while earning
a nickel
with no regard for who it may
tickle....
My cup is full to the brim."
-Buju Banton

[Rysade]

MMMmmm, Diane versus Ben Stein in Scrabble. Who would win, I wonder? The professional author, or the self proclaimed Genius? I just can't keep the image of Diane and Ben beating each other with dictionaries out of my head. I wonder, would the dictionaries get bigger with every hit, being in such close proximity to a vast vocabulary?

The page cleared itself, and new words appeared. "Apparition or co-location?"
There it was, yet another word Nita hadn't ever heard of before today. "Apparition first," she said.
"See highlighted section," the page said, and her manual was abruptly about an inch thicker.

When we hear a fantastic claim we say, "that's nice, prove it."
- Michael Schermer, Skeptic Society

I'm gonna apoligize again for how often I post. And also for how long my sig is, because I just LOVE THIS THING. Also, I fear i'm getting too deep for people, and if you want to keep the discussion light and airy, then feel free to shut me up by saying: "Oh, NO, Rysade's gonna go PHILOSOPHICAL again!"

[Quill]

Hey, what's a forum for, if not discussion?

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

[intriKate]

Speaking in tongues is not necessarily speaking in another language... if you go to a pentacostal church, you know what I mean.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

[PK]

-Agouni appears to occur in several place-names in Algeria. I can't find a meaning. I am not sure why it makes me think of sheep, and suspect I should be worried.

-Toude is also Greek. "Mecri toude" appears to mean "hitherto"; "apo toude" seems to mean "from this time." I conclude that it means "this time" or "now," approximately.

-I've found "den" used as a negation, but without an apostrophe, so I'm not sure that fits.

-I can't find "nikyn" in any reasonable context whatsoever. I suspect an alternate transliteration might help, but I'm not getting anywhere.

So the end now sounds like "now in motion" to me, and "dos" still sounds like "two," but I'm completely lost in the middle.


-Entath appears in Spanish and French documents, and so far as I can tell is a contraction of "enta eth," which does not tell me a whole lot. Sounds more like a letter in context though, somehow.

[Rad]

yes, kate, speaking in tongues is an entirely different thing...yet it is kind of the same. everyone who speaks in tongues received the ability as a gift from the holy spirit, so everyone speaks it differently (believe me, I know; I've heard several different people speak in tongues). It may be that the speech is like that (see the topic specific symbols) b/c maybe everyone speaks it differently, but can understand it. Like one example. In one of the churches I went to, sometimes people would just stand up and say something in tongues, and then someone else would translate...

~Rad

[PK]

Aha!

I found the "Dos d'en agouni" phrase -- it's a quote, found in the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite and for all I know in others directed to other Greek deities.

The translation appears to be "Grant me victory in today's contest."

...Still can't help with "entath."

[Quill]

Googling "entath" turns up a number of sites from or about Catalunya, which my brother tells me is in the north of Spain. The language looks like a mix of French, Spanish, and Latin. Unfortunately, Google ain't set up for that one yet.

Have a look

[Magic Butter]

Hmmm, doubt EntathMagic Butter, better than normal on your toast.

[Magic Butter]

Oh! I think no one said it, Veignt's French. Or at least an error in writing it, because it appears in a couple of dozen French websites, though I know it's written Vignt. Yes, I'm going to sleep (read 'till I drop) so I will be not posting more. :P

----

Magic Butter, better than normal on your toast.