Look everybody!! (group reading of YW)

[bluesalamanders]

Here's my assumption: fewer whales - humans' fault, spurred by the LP - which equals fewer wizards, which equals fewer wizards of the level (and temperment) necessary to play the Silent One's role.

Also, nobody was volunteering. And, having read the books, we know why - because the opening had to be there for Nita to volunteer, to pay back the energy she and Kit used for the Mobius spell in the first book.

Blue~

[Birdhead]

Okay, this is what our transcript had (edited slightly for ease of reading, typos, etc. If people want it in original format, or the whole discussion, let me know and I'll post it somewhere; I took out a lot of side comment):

EWizard11: is the reason that it's so hard for nita to face up to dying (as opposed to previous whale Silent Lords) because of differences in the Choice?
EWizard11: discuss.
EWizard11: and then post the conclusions you reach in the reread topic.
Birdhead: XD OK
Birdhead: You mean the human choice versus the whale choice?
EWizard11: right.
Peter Murray: Perhaps it's that she hadn't thought about it in advance.
Peter Murray: At the end, she was prepared to face it.
Tuttle: Perhaps because she's not had to face the thought of death in general
Tuttle: I'd be interesting to see her thoughts after Dilemma
Tuttle: I could see it going either way
Birdhead: Man, poor old Nita gets bashed around a *lot*, huh?
Birdhead: I dunno, would the human vs whale choice\...
Birdhead: Well, in the books it's not explicit how the human Choice went, is it?
Tuttle: There probably was a difference in human vs. whale
Tuttle: Not that I remember
Peter Murray: I'd think it's mostly the fact that she's probably the first Silent Lord not to have known what she was agreeing to.
Birdhead: But I think we can gather that humans accepted the LP at least partially
Birdhead: PM- yeah, I think so, too. But it's still an interesting question.
Peter Murray: Apart from the first one, who must have just done it at the right moment.
Peter Murray: But Quelt feels that humans accepted the LP far more than other races did.
Birdhead: Although I can't see humans competing to play the part of the Silent Lord, and we *can* put that down to Choice, I think
Birdhead: PM- hm. Probably. But remember that Quelt was not exactly in her right mind, IIRC
Birdhead: She was upset at the differences between our world and hers
Peter Murray: True. But those differences were because the LP hardly touched her world (except by letting it stagnate).
Birdhead: And of course to her what seems different must be bad. Whereas for the Alaalids, even though they seemed really to have the perfect life, almost unaffected by entropy...
Birdhead: Hm, I'm not sure I see it that way. To me it was more that the LP *appeared* not to touch their world
Birdhead: however, I can concur that humanity does seem to have accepted the LP to a higher degree than the Alaalids, and also the whales.
Birdhead: Probably also.... what's Filif's people's name again?
Birdhead: But less than the Rirhait
Peter Murray: I can't remember.
Birdhead: me either
Birdhead: oh yes I do, Demisiv.
Peter Murray: And the Motherboarders/mobiles rejected it entirely. So, presumably, they will never have true death.
Birdhead: That's certainly what's implied
Birdhead: while at the other end of the scale we have, um, the Hesper's people

So the consensus we appear to have reached is that Nita's dramatic reaction to the role of the Silent Lord was more a consequence of not knowing what she was signing up for than innate differences between humans and whales - especially because we don't know that humans might not volunteer for the job, too.

However, reflecting on your rephrasing of the question... I do think that more whales would volunteer for the job, where humans wouldn't (were they offered the opportunity) and I do think that does reflect a difference in the nature of the species, which does reflect on our respective Choices and attitudes to death. Unfortunately, without having a thorough explanation of the human Choice, which we are unlikely to get in canon, it's difficult to make an explicit comparison without comparing our own personal & non-canonical experiences of human attitudes to death with the in-canon attitudes of whales.

[EWizard11]

Ooh, food for thought. I think I agree with you guys there. However, taking experiences of death from canon, i.e. (I'll white this next out just in case...) <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Nita's mom's death</span>, or perhaps more the response to it, I think we can safely assume that the human Choice went badly. And if the story of Adam and Eve is indeed what's canonically considered to be the human Choice, then, knowing that story well enough, I think we can conclude that it did end badly.

Hm....

Thanks Tui!

[the_peridexis]

humans, being human, are perhaps the most selfish species on earth...for ex: the only way to save your family from a sniper (or something...)would be to risk your own life trying to disarm the enemy. a human would hesistate, where as a non-human, with its more animalistic instincts, would without hesitation jump in with all its might. i mean, ever seen a weasel atttack a fox to protect its kits?i have.(don't ask...) foxes aren't very big, but they are much bigger than a weasel. those are very rough analogies, i know, but i think they display my point pretty well. so being animals (or non-humans, w/e) whales wouldn't hesitate as much, or as often, as a human....am i making sense?

-peri

[Peter Murray]

I don't think it's as simple as being human or non-human. I think it's being sentient, being aware that there is a future, and that actions have consequences.

The weasel probably can't imagine that it will be injured, whereas humans and whales (and cats and other species that have wizards) can imagine that.

[bluesalamanders]

And besides, how do you know the person would hesitate? What if it were your mother and father that sniper was going to kill? Or your children? Many parents would not hesitate, to save the lives of their children.

Anyway, I don't think that explanation works within the alternate universe of the YW books - as Peter said, in the books, the animals have the reasoning abilities like humans, and that changes the situation completely.

As to my opinions why whales would in general not be against playing the Silent One's role...I haven't read the book in a while, so let's see if I remember some things correctly. I assume it's a matter of psychology, as well as the different idea about death that they have from humans. Humans tend to be brought up seeing death as The End, and even after Nita and Kit learn about Timeheart, they have trouble releasing those deep-set feelings about it.

Whales, on the other hand, are raised knowing about the Heart of the Sea and knowing that the "little death", while painful and sad, is still only that and the whole "what's loved, lives" bit. Also, as I said, they clearly have a slightly different psychology than humans do (not surprising, living under the sea, and also in an openly-wizarding society).

Blue~

[Angel_Star]

I agree with Blue...

The whales seem to have a totally different view on death, making it into a real passage into something different, instead of an ending.

Also, wouldn't it be considered an honour to play the Silent One's role? To give up your life for the sake of others...and to play the most important role of such an important wizardry. All of the Singers respected Nita for her decision. Okay, well, all but one, but I think you catch my meaning. Maybe the whales would want the honour of being the sacrifice, while a human wouldn't view it as an honour, but as a duty. And human wizards didn't seem to be as familiar with the story of the original Choice, so they'd view it differently. I derno.

[Birdhead]

the "little death",

*spittakes* I do not think that means what you think it means!

[the_peridexis]

excellent point, all of you. next time i'll have to analyze my point from all angles. (which i try to do, but hey,i'm not perfect!) i love being around intellectuals; it provides for an enlightening experience and plenty of food for thought. *thinks* so many of my friends seem so juvenile and shallow after discussing things w/ you pplz...i love you all!! *cheesy grin*

-peri

[bluesalamanders]

Yes, Birdhead, I know the "other meaning" of that (although it's true, I didn't think of it when I wrote that post), but there is also a phrase along those lines in the book, if I remember correctly. I'd have to reread the book to find it, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

Blue~

[Birdhead]

*grin* Well, I'll take your word for it. I feel little ashamed I found it necessary to comment but... oh, come on, it was funny, I laughed for like five minutes. :P

[EWizard11]

I do not think that means what you think it means!

Yay, Tui quoted Princess Bride! I don't know if it was inadvertant, but I don't really care!

P.S.: Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
*ahem* sorry.

[Birdhead]

Inconceivable!

I don't know if it was inadvertant, but I don't really care!

Nope, totally deliberate. That movie is just one long signature waiting to happen.

*flees Poot & possible attendant ROUS*

[EWizard11]

*flees Poot & possible attendant ROUS*

I used to have a quote from it in my signature:

"You've fallen victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is: never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ahahaha! Ahahaha! Aha--"

That was from memory...I can hear Vizzini saying it in my head.

Also:
Vizzini: No more, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?

I have on a shirt:
"I do not mean to pry, but you do not by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?"
and on the back:
"You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you."
(Unfortunately the next line is missing: "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.")

Also:
"No! Your ears you keep, and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child and seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish; every babe that weeps at your approach; every woman who cries out dear God what is that thing will echo in your perfect ears. That is what 'to the pain' means, Highness: it means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever."

I think that last part was right...

Wow, I'm a really big nerd who just made herself happy.

[bluesalamanders]

The movie is great and all (and I do love the movie) but have any of you read the book?

The Princess Bride is one of the very few instances in which I love the book and movie equally.

Blue~