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  • DD and 'Self-intertextuality'

    One aspect of DD's work that I find especially intriguing (and has been commented on in passing in various places on these discussion boards and elsewhere) is her use of 'self-intertextuality' *. As this has never been discussed at length, to my knowledge, here is a compendium of all the instances of 'self-intertextuality' concerning the YW books I know about, either from noticing them myself or from reading someone else's report. Please let me know if I have missed any, which is probably likely, considering that I have not read all of DD's oeuvre by any means. I have also attempted to attribute the discovery of these instances of 'self-intertextuality' as much as possible (via internet searches) --my apologies for any failures or misattributions:

    Nita's Manual was written by Herewiss (from the Middle Kingdoms books), as he is Hearn's son. Priority for discovery of this (which has been verified by DD) seems to go to Kathy Li (kli6 on these forums) --see either this post from net.startrek or this one from rec.arts.sf-lovers (further [rather interesting] corroboration is mentioned here).

    "Bridling the nightmare," which Nita reads about in her Manual in SYWTBAW is developed in The Door into Shadow (see DD's comment here).

    'Stiheh' appears as a dracon word in The Door into Shadow in addition to its appearance in Dilemma. This was noticed by kli6 (see her post in 'dai stiheh' in 'The Language of Wizardry'), Birdhead (see her post [from the 15th of October] on the second page of the 'Books' thread in 'Chatter II') and me at about the same time (though I didn't 'publish,' so I can't claim precedence ).

    The "delphine ambassador" mentions 'The Song of the Twelve' in Dark Mirror (noted by lots of people: Lee S. Billings here, Joanie Laurel in her comment concerning the October 19th, 2003 'Out of Ambit' entry, Khendon in the September 28th, 2002 chat with DD [chat log available here] and Persephone Kore [PK on these forums] here --I am not even going to attempt to try to establish precedence in this case).

    There are some other connections between the YW series and DD's 'Star Trek' work as regards alien species. According to Merri-Todd Webster, one of the characters in Holiday was first introduced in Doctor's Orders and some of DD's other Trek aliens, such as the Mizarthu, also appear in various YW books.

    According to Joanie Laurel (loc. cit.), "Lee notice[s] Tom and/or Carl and some cat-wizards at one point." I would assume that she meant Lee Enfield from Stealing the Elf-King's Roses except that I can't find anything in that book that could even remotely be construed as a reference to them, so either I'm missing something, Joanie Laurel was remembering incorrectly (and she did preface her statement with "I swear I read") or there is another Lee in one of DD's books. (I'll turn that last question over to those members who've read more of DD's oeuvre than I have.)

    Spoiler for The Door into Fire:
    While I could be reading more into this passage than DD actually intended, Sunspark's appearance as a joke-telling "bright-feathered bird" in the inn in Chapter 6 of The Door into Shadow strikes me as a reference to Peach.

    In case you are doubting the necessity of spoiler space here, I included it to avoid spoiling the fact that Sunspark doesn't actually die in The Door into Fire, for, while this would already have been spoiled for readers who read the jacket 'blurb' for The Door into Shadow on the Meisha Merlin edition, I prefer to err on the side of caution in such matters.


    Please note that I have tried to include in this list only bits of 'self-intertextuality' that strike me as intentional and are specific (i.e., not simply thematic ideas). I have also excluded various bits of intertextuality in the YW books which, although they could be considered 'self-intertextuality,' do not involve one of DD's personal creations, but something she has worked with but not created.

    This brings me to the main point of this post: speculation on DD's intentions in including all of this 'self-intertextuality' in her works. (Note that, while I have only listed instances of 'self-intertextuality' that involve the YW universe, these are not the only occurrences in DD's work: Joanie Laurel (loc cit.) and DD (here) both mention connections between the Star Trek and Middle Kingdoms universes.) For, while the element of an inside joke between author and readers is certainly present to a large degree here, I can't help but think that there is a larger and more philosophical reason for these allusions. My personal feeling is that DD wanted to make connections between all of her different worlds --perhaps showing that they all inhabit the same "sheaf of universes." Of course, not all of these allusions have the same import for connections between her different worlds, but I think that enough of them have a significant enough import to warrant this conclusion.

    I don't know of any other author who uses 'self-intertextuality' to the same degree (or in the same way) that DD does (though I wouldn't be surprised if other forum members do) --the best analogue I can find lies in music: this use of 'self-intertextuality' seems very similar to some of the more subtle uses of cyclic recall. In general, the term 'cyclic recall' can denote anything from the cleverly disguised return of a short motif from a previous movement to an entire section of a previous movement being repeated verbatim (in some cases this disguising of motifs can be so clever that a listener might never notice that it was an instance of cyclic recall, even after listening to the piece repeatedly). While cyclic recall is stereotypically thought of as a trait of Romantic music, it can be found in far earlier works, including, fascinatingly enough, J. S. Bach's Six Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin **. As mentioned above, there are some very blatant instances of cyclic recall, such as the 'motto themes' of Romantic symphonies (of which Cesar Franck's Symphony in d minorSymphony No. 9 in e minor 'From the New World'), but I am not interested in those in making my analogue here. I am more concerned with instances of cyclic recall that are at least as subtle as those found in Gustav Mahler's Symphony No. 1 'The Titan': for instance, the opening 5 notes of the main theme from the (withdrawn) 'Blumine' movement make an important appearance in the Scherzo (this work also has even more subtle cyclic ideas [such as the prevalence of falling and rising fourths throughout all of the movements] as well as an incredibly blatant piece of cyclic recall [perhaps most amazing, in my opinion, for how well it works musically] of an entire section from the first to the last movements --I am not intending to reference this as a instance of subtlety here!).

    However, as noted above, cyclic recall functions within the confines of a single piece, which is designed to be heard in its entirety (even the Bach Sonatas and Partitas are part of a set of pieces which were published together), while DD's 'self-intertextuality' functions over very disparate individual books or series of books (sequences of books, to be mathematically correct ). There are instances of 'self-intertextuality' in the tone poems and operas of Richard Strauss and the operas of Richard Wagner, but these are quotations designed to make a particular reference to the work, or leitmotif being quoted (such as Strauss' method of revealing himself as the hero of Ein Heldenleben through quotes from his tone poems, or Wagner's use of leitmotifs from Der Ring des Nibelungen and Tristan und Isolde in both and Parsifal). It is Anton Bruckner's use of 'self-intertextuality' seems to lie the closest to DD's, though, in that there are interconnections between all of his symphonies (well, at least from No. 5 onward) as well as between several of his symphonies and his Te Deum (see the entry on Bruckner in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, 2nd ed. [in particular, '11. Narrative and Intertextuality'] for some specifics). It could be argued, of course, that a set of symphonies forms a de facto 'series' (sequence), but that does not strike me as particularly compelling, even for Romantic symphonies, although it could very well be true for Bruckner (especially as the Grove article suggests that he may have considered all of his symphonies as "component[s] of a single 'meta-symphony' encompassing all nine symphonies"), which, in some sense, would strengthen my argument (and perhaps provide insight into DD's thoughts on the matter). However, regardless of how interesting as these connections may be, there is always the danger of reading too much into then, especially as I somehow doubt that DD planned on emulating Bach or even Bruckner in her use of 'self-intertextuality.'

    As a matter of interest, I have nominated this topic for inclusion in The Errantry Concordance, so we may find out more when that appears. I especially indicated a desire to find out matters of precedence (e.g., was "Bridling the nightmare" first conceived in the Middle Kingdoms universe and then included in SYWTBAW, or was it first developed as an incidental detail in SYWTBAW and then expanded on in The Door into Shadow?).

    Nathan

    * The "self" part of this term is, as far as I know, my own innovation (though this page does come up when I do a Google search on the term). In addition, I may be using "intertextuality" incorrectly in this context, as I came across it in an article (referenced above) on Anton Bruckner, where it was used to refer to borrowings/allusions in music.

    ** This 'cyclic recall' (which is quite subtle) functions both within the individual sonatas and partitas, as well as throughout the complete set of works. For more information, see Joel Lester's Bach's works for solo violin: style, structure, performance (which, if my memory serves me correctly, contains some insightful musings on the nature of this cyclic recall).

    Pauca sed matura. --Karl Friedrich Gauss

    Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

    [edited to whiteout the spoiler. --kli.]
    Last edited by Garrett Fitzgerald; January 22, 2010, 02:54:31 PM. Reason: fixed spoiler markup, unicode
    Omnia disce, videbis postea nihil esse superfluum.

  • #2
    As a Cultural Sidelight, Dracon is awfully similar to the Speech; I note several words that are either directly related or identical (at the moment, examples escape me without a lot of chewing through at least 5 books, for which I don't have time.) Would this indicate that Dragons are one of the species that still use the Speech for casual conversation, or a descendant language that is directly connected etymologically? They do have a direct connection with the Immanence.

    "Thus is Balance maintained." A Wizard of Earthsea
    "Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance." Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
    "Thus is Balance maintained." A Wizard of Earthsea
    "Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance." Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

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    • #3
      Actually, for me another good example of this meta-connection would be George R.R. Martin, all of whose books and stories can more or less be connected via the colonizing of the planet Avalon. And repeated usage of images and phrases, such as the Seven/the Sept, or "Winter is coming." (which appeared in a Beauty and the Beast episode of all things).

      But reading a deliberate, thematic attempt at building a single cohesive omniverse is, I think, a little precipitous. I think it's more the nature of all the stories coming from one brain than anything else.

      I do admit, though, that it is more pervasive and subtle than, say, Frances Hodgson Burnett having T. Temborom point his thumb at a Cavlier-era ancestor's portrait and say, "Who's the Fauntleroy in the lace collar?"
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      • #4
        I have by no means read all of Madeleine L'Engle's fiction, but I have yet to run across one that is not connected to another, if by nothing more than the mention of a name in passing. Several of her series are connected by wandering characters, such as Canon Tallis or Zachary, but some of the links are subtler. I started making a list at one point, but stalled out.

        I'm not sure that Ms. Duane is doing much more than in-jokes, anyway; it's quite common, esp. among sf/f writers (and other media), to "tip the hat" in some way, and twice the joke to do it to one's self.

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        • #5
          The endpapers of Madeleine L'Engle's books (hardback, at any rate) have started to show how all her characters connect to each other, either in our world's real linear time, or the "other-time" she uses when visiting other planets or realities (I forget the term she uses; I believe it's Greek). Her worlds that start with A Wrinkle in Time all connect somehow, either via crossover characters or events. There are times when having the diagrams is very helpful.

          "Thus is Balance maintained." A Wizard of Earthsea
          "Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance." Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
          "Thus is Balance maintained." A Wizard of Earthsea
          "Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance." Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

          Comment


          • #6
            L'engle... uhm.... I know she groups books in two vague categories on those back covers, which may be what nyou're referring to? one is Chronos and the other eludes me. Yeah, all of L'Engle's books seem to be connected though my knowledge of her is far, far from complete. However, is that really what Nathan means? Stealing the Elf-King's Roses, YW, Middle Kingdoms and Star Trek all inter-reference, but they're not in the same universe, or at least I don't think so: wizardry in MK, for example, is considerably different from that in YW, and what we see in YW seems to be universal- at least for that universe... Same goes for STEKR, and I have simply no clue about Trek, having read none of them- but wizardry seems to be well-known throughout the YW universe off-planet. I think the Trek crew would have run into it by now.

            By contrast, L'Engle's work is all in the one universe... what magic she has seems to be standardised. (Again, only as far as I know.) So it's a different situation, isn't it?

            I like the sheaf universes idea, but I also think the idea that they're a product of the same mind is sound. I'd probably balance it by saying that DD shows that all literary universes (that she writes?) are fundamentally connected by "self-intertextuality-" I guess that they're governed by similar principles, although are not the same. The idea of entropy is fairly general, I think? The idea that you don't waste. Whether she does it deliberately or not, no idea. It's fun, though, cameos rock.

            Question: would we not be able to assume that all the litarary universes were linked because in many ways they're identical? STEKR, for example, specifically links our Earth with the STEKR sheaf. Trek is more a projection of our Earth than anything- very closely linked. YW again is very close to ours; MK is the only one that it's a real stretch to link, but presence of humanity is probably enough. So possibly go beyond the sheaf of universes...

            Also: Nathan, you're HARDCORE. How long did that take you??
            Plus, I saw two Strad violins and a viola (plus a couple of 'cellos) at the Smithsonian today. I just wanted to share that. STRADS!!!!!!!!

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            • #7
              I have read some of L'engle but not all but all of the books that I have read retain back to other books.

              *Many have gone and many have stayed but one thing stays the same: Love and Hate they never go away but they can be beaten- Devin
              *Many have come to this place and most have left it but let not their life be a mystery- Devin
              *Many have come and gone so we need to leave a ripple before this planet is washed away- Devin
              *Many have come and gone but few are here to stay-Devin
              *Life is a book, all thats good is when one is in suspense-Devin
              *Many have gone and many have stayed but one thing stays the same: Love and Hate they never go away but they can be beaten- Devin
              *Many have come to this place and most have left it but let not their life be a mystery- Devin
              *Many have come and go

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              • #8
                I actually should have thought of Madeleine L'Engle in connection with this, although I do indeed feel that the connections she has forged between her books are fundamentally different from DD's for much the same reasons Birdhead mentioned (and it's always nice to see an 'independent party' bring up something you were going to, so thanks, Tui), though I would add that the very nature of connections based on common characters is quite different from the connections of DD's listed above, but I would be quite interested in seeing even a partial listing of some of L'Engle's "more subtle links," Quill, as I can't think of any off the top of my head (though this may just be an indication that I need to go back and re-read some of her works, which I've been meaning to do for quite some time now). Thanks for the contribution of George R.R. Martin, kli6 --I've been meaning to investigate his work for quite a while, as you frequently mention it.

                Oh, I may very well be reading too much into this 'self-intertextuality,' but it was awfully fun to speculate about! However, I am quite partial to Birdhead's interpretation of it as simply a recognition of the underlying (implied) connections between DD's various literary universes (though I can't find a compelling a priori connection between the Earth-based universes and the Middle Kingdoms universe, either).

                So, no thoughts about whether Joanie Laurel was referring to STEKR, or another of DD's works (or just remembering incorrectly)?

                meteorite: Thanks for the mention of Madeleine L'Engle's 'character connection chart.' I'll have to have a look at a recent hardcover next time I'm at the library (or, depending on how recently these have started being added, the bookstore).

                Birdhead: I've been thinking about this post (and doing some research for it) off and on for upwards of four months now, though writing it took only about a month (elapsed time). It's probably too long and would have been well-served by some judicious editing --I was suffering somewhat from 'diarrhea of the keyboard' and must confess to being fairly concerned that I rambled on for far too long about the musical connections, which are most likely of very limited interest to the great majority of people on this board. Glad you got to go to the Smithsonian! I haven't been there since I was quite young, but I still have very fond memories of it. Seeing Strads is always exciting --I can't remember whether I saw them when I was there or not. I've had the rare privilege of actually getting to play one (briefly), though: When Timothy Baker (of the Amadeus Trio) was giving a masterclass that I was playing in, he let the violinists in attendance play his violin --the "Guitar" Stradivarius! (You can see a picture of it [and thus understand how it got its nickname] here.) I was really too nervous (and too afraid of dropping it, especially as Timothy Baker uses a small pad attached to the underside of the violin instead of a normal shoulder-rest) to fully explore its tonal possibilities, but I remember it being very full-sounding (and loud!). Now all I need is to get to play a Guarneri . </violin geekery>

                Nathan

                Pauca sed matura. --Karl Friedrich Gauss

                Non doctrinam, sed perspicuitatem quaero.

                [This message was edited by Nathan on 10 March 2004 at 18:25.]
                Omnia disce, videbis postea nihil esse superfluum.

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                • #9
                  Soemthing somewhat related that I'd like to point out: DD seems to like doing refs to other ppl's works, too... although I may be just in the dark about some of this, I know that the BEMs are a general sf ref, and that that things that the cats do in the BONWM series had an endnote-thingy about other authors who developed the idea or mentioned it, and then there was that one thread in the author-thoughts forum about the Transdescent Pig, and she mentioned something about other author's versions there, too.... (or does everyone else already know all this??)

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                  • #10
                    Nathan--it's been a while since I worked on that project, which was majorly hampered anyway by the fact that some of Ms. L'Engle's books seem to be so out of print that they are very hard to find (and I haven't yet, though I haven't been trying very hard). The "subtle" one I was thinking of is the connection of "And Both Were Young" to another book. Unfortunately I don't have my nascent list to hand, but IIRC, the connection was the mere mention of Philippa Hunter--ABWY's main character--in another book, in passing. Mind you, ABWY may well be more firmly connected elsewhere, and I just haven't found it yet.

                    I think the two terms used are Chronos, yes, and Kairos.

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                    • #11
                      There is a nice chart (like the endpapers, it sounds) at this L'Engle fan site:
                      http://users@aol.com/kfbofpql/LEngl.html
                      It's through the link "The books of Madeleine L'Engle," and it does include something for _And Both Were Young_.

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