The Iraq war

[db_pr]

Bradwart: If America wouldn't meddle, it wouldn't have enemies or "angry people", as you call it.

[Ben's Wizpod]

BUSH IS SUCH A DORKWAD!!!

[Cress]

Ok, bradwart, let me just say how I see it.
There are so many countries right now that have bad governments. There are SO many countries that were in worse positions than Iraq. Did Bush do a thing to help them? No. Which country DID he help? The one that had large amounts of oil.
The terrorist attack on the US had no connection to Iraq.
Also, the attacks were slightly different in that one of them was a terrorist attack done for religion of a kind. It was a group that wasn't specifically affiliated with a single country, whereas Pearl Harbor was a direct attack from a specific country.
Remember why Bush told us we were going to war? "Weapons of Mass Destruction". Fast forward to now. How many WMD did we find in Iraq? A grand total of none.
What gave Bush the right to go to some country that had NEVER attacked the US and destroy the government that was in place? It was a "bad" government? What gives Bush the right to decide for other countries what their government is? The UN is whose job it is to help countries that are in trouble, and they told Bush that he would not be supported if he went into Iraq.
The Iraq people didn't want the US army in their country in the first place. However, now that we're here I don't think we should just let them go to chaos. I don't agree with the government that Bush is setting up however, as it seems far too much like a puppet government for my comfort level.
I think there might be more about this argument that I'm forgetting, but it's been a while since I thought about it, so all my thoughts aren't exactly straight. Also I think it's rather stupid to call people unpatriotic for voicing their opinions on something the administration has done, since one of the principals that our country was founded on was the right to free speech. Are you saying that by excercising one of our constitutional rights we're being unpatriotic?

[bradwart]

Let me put it this way. We are fighting a war on terrorism, not for oil. If we wanted the oil, we would have taken it by now. Personally, I think we should just annex Iraq, the keep the oil.
Secondly, the UN is one of the most worthless groups in history. They are no more efficient than the FDA. America is the worlds last superpower. It's up to us to stop the terrorists, because the UN has shown time and time again that it is inept at getting things done. And DB, I don't remember us meddling with Osama Bin Laden, yet for some strange reason, he attacked. Hmm.....
And Cress, I did state that your being Anti-American was in my opinion.
So, when Iran decides to launch a Nuclear Weapon at some country, who do you trust to take care of it? Who is in the best position?

[Dee]

bradwart:

Secondly, the UN is one of the most worthless groups in history. They are no more efficient than the FDA.

I completely and utterly agree with you there. The UN is practically worthless, and takes forever to make a decision. But even if they are useless, we as a country agreed to follow their rules when we joined. So why aren't we? Have we decided we don't like their rules? Maybe next time we should decide that before we join.

One thing that everybody might find kind of interesting: the majority of the Iraqi people do not hate Americans. My brother was telling me about this: his Middle Eastern Cultures prof was talking about how he has been there many times, and the people are quite friendly to Americans. It's the crazy religious extremists who are not. But, another point of interest: while the Iraqis do not hate Americans, almost all of them hate our government.

bradwart:
And Cress, I did state that your being Anti-American was in my opinion.

I think she knew that. It's not as though they're passing laws that you're anti-American if you don't like the war. She was trying to say that she disagreed with your opinion. And frankly, I do too.

America is a great nation. I love my country. I am extremely patriotic. on July 4th, I'm out there with everybody else, lighting fireworks-- and not just because I like the pretty lights. I understand what it is to be patriotic, and I am.

But loving my country is not the same as loving the person running it... or what they are doing.

I highly suggest this link: http://www.maxbarry.com/2004/04/21/ It is an excellent essay written by a favorite author of mine, and I think it describes my opinion precisely. (It was written right before the 2004 US election, so that's why it mentions it.)

Thanks for listening to my opinion!

[bradwart]

As much as I'd like to scream and shout here, I won't.
People, Millions have been hating our style of government since we created it. It's the way of life.

Also, just because you go to a Fourth of July celebration, that doesn't make you American. Our Fourth of July celebrations are attended by millions of illegal immigrants as well. Does that make them American?
You may not think much over the illegal immegration problem, but living fairly close to the border, I have first hand knowledge about how serious it is.

Once again, the Roosevelt arguement comes to mind.

So, according to your reckoning, if you attend a Fourth of July celebration, it makes you American.
Somebody oughta tell the French.

[matthew]

Well, I agree with all of you, and blams it on bush- hasn't he already shown what a <STRIKE>great</STRIKE> leader he is... hmmm... horrible health plans, and the eavesdopping etc.!!!!

[Dee]

AUGH! Bradwart, I believe you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that going to a 4th of July celebration *makes* you American. I was just using it as an example. I guess I was hoping to drive my point home... I suppose it didn't work. Never mind. But obviously you missed the point on my comment. My point was not that setting off fireworks makes you American. I suggest you reread my message, perhaps ignoring that sentence.

[bradwart]

OOOH! Eavesdropping! Scary!

Wah! We want privacy! Who cares if the nation falls apart, we want privacy!

GROW UP!
And, Dee, that message is nothing but poop.

Sincerely,

[agfish92]

my brother is in iraq. he says were doing nothing there and we need to leave. hes board for gods sack and the worst part of it is that they r pretty much egging on the iraqies to want to bomb us. BUSH IS AN IDOUT HE NEEDS TO PULL THE TROUPS OUT. <that has been a freak out by ariel support r toroops they have no desision to be there so support them.

[Dee]

How sweet... I see we're being very mature, aren't we, Bradwart? I wonder who it is who needs to grow up?

Personally, I was trying to be friendly. I don't think some stupid discussion over politics is worth making people I've just met hate me. Usually I try not to insult people with such childish remarks as "poop" and "GROW UP". But I see we're different.

I'm very sorry you feel that way, Bradwart, and I'm also sorry if you feel I insulted you in any way. Of course, if you had actually *read* and *thought about* my post, you would have realized that I actually have a few beliefs that are quite similar to yours. But I guess you were too busy writing insults. You may have noticed that there are several people on this topic who do not think Bush is a moron, and they managed to keep themselves polite and sounding intelligent.

Please try to be more mature, Bradwart, for all our sakes. It's not easy to have an interesting, friendly, political debate when people are insulting others randomly.

[alla]

Originally posted by matthew:
Well, I agree with all of you, and blams it on bush- hasn't he already shown what a <STRIKE>great</STRIKE> leader he is... hmmm... horrible health plans, and the eavesdopping etc.!!!!

Umm... a great leader is not necessarily made through making descisions that satisfy the _entire_ population of the people he/she is leading. A great leader is made by gaining the respect of the people that they are leading, so that they can ask those people to do things. Bush has shown this in that he was elected.

Another trait of a good leader is the ability to make a descision and stick to that descision, no matter what people have said/are saying. What sort of a leader backs down from a descision that they have made, for whatever reasons, just because of bad press or something of the like?

NB: For example, Aldof Hitler was a great leader. He may have abused the power that he was given, but he was still a great leader.

[agfish92]

I'm very sorry you feel that way, Bradwart, and I'm also sorry if you feel I insulted you in any way. Of course, if you had actually *read* and *thought about* my post, you would have realized that I actually have a few beliefs that are quite similar to yours. But I guess you were too busy writing insults. You may have noticed that there are several people on this topic who do not think Bush is a moron, and they managed to keep themselves polite and sounding intelligent

was i ininteligent by calling him an idout?.... yes brad you r very.......whats the word ...... inmature. bush did wrong i think all of us know that......

[Dee]

I don't think Bradwart is immature because he likes Bush... I have nothing really wrong with people liking Bush and I have a lot of friends who support him, even if I personally don't. What I did not like is when someone insults me on the basis of... absolutely nothing. Perhaps I should not have said immature. But then again, I usually get a bit annoyed when somebody insults me so blatantly and publicly, so I guess I have an excuse.

If you feel the need to insult me, please do it in a PM at least. Do it to my face, not to everyody else's faces.

My apologies to everybody else... maybe we should gt back on topic now. XD

[Gryphon]

Bradwart:
And DB, I don't remember us meddling with Osama Bin Laden, yet for some strange reason, he attacked. Hmm.....

Diego wasn't referring to Osama Bin Laden, but I would assume that he's uhhh... citing examples such as the one in the title of the topic. We never had to get involved. The initial reason was because of Weapons of Mass Desctuction, which, though their source of intelligence is debatable, are a serious threat. So okay, maybe that's fine. But we come into a relatively stable country and take out their government. Disorder, chaos, blah blah blah -- you know the story. The terrorist groups and Sadam supporters are POed that Americans are in their country, messing around. So Bush says that we've done a good thing, and it's great that we're liberating the people, even though it means we're doomed to be stuck in the country for decades to come. Though Iraq didn't offer freedoms or security for its people -- in fact, they were abused and slaughtered by the government itself --, there are many, many more countries in a worse position, such as in Africa where AIDs and genocide rampant. In some parts, an apartheid still exists.

Bradwart:
And Cress, I did state that your being Anti-American was in my opinion.

I'd like to remind you that our first ammendment is Freedom of Speech. If a difference of opinion makes someone unpatriotic, think about what country you're talking about.

Bradwart:
So, when Iran decides to launch a Nuclear Weapon at some country, who do you trust to take care of it? Who is in the best position?

Not Bush! We'll be bombed off the face of the earth _and_ be hated world-wide for centuries.

In the middle east, the majority of the terrorists getting the world's attention are the fundamentalist Islamics. They're not the majority of Muslims, but they're the most vocal.

Bradwart:
So, according to your reckoning, if you attend a Fourth of July celebration, it makes you American.
Somebody oughta tell the French.

Dee didn't say that. (And calling something that uses more than a couple of brain cells "poop" is not cool). But besides the point, what do you beleive makes a person patriotic?

Yo, Fish, in the forums, you should use capitalization and grammar (caps are your *friends*). Also, you shouldn't post short posts or simply, "Yeah, I agree!"