Atheism

[Cress]

I know I at least am not a hardcore atheist...it depends on the day whether I'm feeling particularly cynical or not. Some days I'm agnostic. I really just don't know...so I think having a good healthy debate/conversation is good. Hehe. I have almost been convinced of the existence of God because at the last two BNL concerts I went to, they played the two songs that I was hoping SOOO much they would play, and it was amazing and a religious experience. Just kidding, but I guess I could be convinced.

[Onua Wingstar]

Someone asked me what my religion was, which always turns out to be a lengthy and frustrating conversation. I told them I didn't have one, and you know what their very first question was? "Then how do you know what's right and wrong?"

I honestly was in shock. I'm sorry, but at the risk of offending people, if you're not teaching your children that "God" isn't the only reason you shouldn't hurt someone, we are all in serious trouble. I couldn't believe that this poor girl actually had no idea how I could distinquish between good and bad without a religion. It makes me sad for her, actually. I can't imagine going through life without that kind of basic knowledge.

It's very true that people who don't believe in God can still tell right from wrong. Most sane people can.

The question religion tries to address isn't so much "What is right and what is wrong" as "Why is 'right' right and 'wrong' wrong?" Why is it bad, for instance, to hit a child? Why is it bad to hurt or insult someone, even when you know they can't do anything in retaliation? Just look at our cousins in the wild - other primates, and most all animals for that matter, can seem remarkably "cruel" to each other, but no one says that a chimpanzee or a lion who kills his desired mate's existing offspring so that she will mate with him is "evil." That's just the way life is for them.

So why do we humans insist on labeling certain actions as good or bad? It certainly isn't on the basis of what's good for our survival, because morals frequently get in the way of decisions that would be no-brainers for a non-human animal.

If you buy into religion (Christianity in particular here), the answer is that certain actions are good and others are bad because some uphold the sanctity and inherent value of human life (valuable because each human possesses an immortal soul), and others do not.

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by bluesalamanders:
Onua Wingstar -

But the onus isn't on me to disprove the existence of god. There are plenty of things that science "can't disprove" - faeries, unicorns, Zeus, Thor, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, all the innumerable things people have believed over the millenia. It's on you [whoever is arguing it] to prove it.

Blue~

Well, I can disprove the existence of unicorns by pointing out to you that there is currently no evidence of a creature resembling a unicorn in the fossil record. Now, if you want to say belief in unicorns on a spiritual/astral level, or belief in what they symbolize, then that's a different matter.

Zeus and Thor are pretty much the same person/thing as God (according to my beliefs), so they aren't really usable in this argument.

Faeries...well, some people say they do exist. I've never seen one, but who knows?

And the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while amusing, is aimed at making fun of Scientologists and is just silly.

So, like I said, until you have reasonable evidence to the contrary, I'm going to give Him the benefit of the doubt.

[bluesalamanders]

Onua -

That's not proof. That's not even evidence. For one, new fossils are being discovered yearly. For two, how do you know a unicorn would leave fossil remains? How do you know they even die? They're supposed to be magical creatures, not just horses with a horn.

Also, it's nothing to do with Scientologists, FSM was created to argue against "Intelligent Design" (i.e. creationism) being taught in science classrooms.

If someone wants me to accept, or even consider accepting, the existence of some kind of supernatural thing, they've got to do better than "lack of evidence against".

Blue~

[Onua Wingstar]

So if you say that I just failed to discredit all those things, why shouldn't anyone believe in them? If you think that we may simply have not discovered a unicorn yet, are you saying they might exist after all?

I don't believe that the story of Genesis is literal (that would be a Creationist view) and personally I'm Big Bang + evolution all the way. But, even as a Biology student, no one has given me a really conclusive reason as to why evolution disproves the existence of a Creator. There is evidence for God out there, if you care to see it. Most people just don't - either because they're afraid or for some other reason.

What scares me most are the people who don't believe in dinosaurs. I know, I know, it's mind-boggling, but these people are out there. o_O

[maxxrox]

Onua: I would love to see this evidence of a god. I want to know what you mean. Could you list this evidence in your next post, and is this evidence provable by the scientific method?

Science never operates on what can't be disproven, but what can be proven. As far as I'm concerned, if there is no evidence provable by the scientific method as to the existance anything, it doesn't exist. If we believe that anything that there is no evidence exists, then here's a list of things that we must accept exist:
-unicorns
-faries
-magic
-FSM
-dragons
-supergenius gorillas (as per Planet of the Apes)
-the Matrix
-grizzly bears with 7 fingers on each hand that can shoot laser beams out of their eyes
-the pots of gold at the end of rainbows, and for that matter, Leprechauns

See? There is no evidence against any one of those things. Just because we haven't found any superintelligent gorillas yet doesn't mean that they don't exist, but for the purposes of science, we have to accept that if we can't prove it, it doesn't exist.

[Cress]

I realize that this post is probably going to get me flamed into oblivion, but I'd like to just put this out there. My mother and I were talking about religion a couple of days ago and I was thinking about the people who simply follow whatever a given religion tells them without thinking any of it through. And it struck me that for so many people religion is a way of hiding from moral responsibility. People don't want to have to think and decide for themselves what is wrong and what is right. They don't want the responsibility in the case that they make a wrong decision. And so they go to someone else, supposedly God, to tell them what is right and what is wrong. It is a way for them to hide, I suppose, because they are afraid to brave the world and the decisions therein by themselves.

I'm sure there was more we said on the subject, but I don't remember all of it right now. I'm not saying this is all religious people, because there are definetely religious people who are strong and intelligent and make their own decisions, but there are a large number of people who go through life as...religious sheep I guess you could call them. Thoughts?

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by Cress:
...I was thinking about the people who simply follow whatever a given religion tells them without thinking any of it through. And it struck me that for so many people religion is a way of hiding from moral responsibility. People don't want to have to think and decide for themselves what is wrong and what is right. They don't want the responsibility in the case that they make a wrong decision. And so they go to someone else, supposedly God, to tell them what is right and what is wrong. It is a way for them to hide, I suppose, because they are afraid to brave the world and the decisions therein by themselves....I'm not saying this is all religious people...but there are a large number of people who go through life as...religious sheep I guess you could call them. Thoughts?

Yes, yes, there certainly are. There are people who use religion as an excuse to torment gay people, to ostracize young mothers, and to burn children's books because they "come from Satan." There are children who grow up terrified that everything they do is a sin and that they will burn for eternity when they die. So, yes, you're right - there are many people who *don't* think through their beliefs enough, and following any religion blindly can be a terrible mistake indeed.

But on the other hand, anyone who thinks that being a Christian is easy has been fooled. Our forbearers were eaten alive by lions for making the choices they did about right and wrong. And that choice - what is good and what is evil - is still each person's, and theirs alone. Religion, or again in this case Christianity, is how some people find guidance and solace in the world, and it is supposed to - supposed to - make the believer stronger and wiser and better able to stand against all that the world can throw at a person.

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by Cress:
...I was thinking about the people who simply follow whatever a given religion tells them without thinking any of it through. And it struck me that for so many people religion is a way of hiding from moral responsibility. People don't want to have to think and decide for themselves what is wrong and what is right. They don't want the responsibility in the case that they make a wrong decision. And so they go to someone else, supposedly God, to tell them what is right and what is wrong. It is a way for them to hide, I suppose, because they are afraid to brave the world and the decisions therein by themselves...I'm not saying this is all religious people...but there are a large number of people who go through life as...religious sheep I guess you could call them. Thoughts?

Yes, yes, yes, there certainly are. There are people who use religion as an excuse for tormenting homosexuals, ostracizing young mothers and oppressing women. There are children who grow up terrified that everything they do is a sin and believing that they will burn for eternity when they die. Adopting a faith without thinking the decision through is lazy and dangerous, and following any religion blindly is a terrible mistake.

But on the other hand, anyone who thinks that being Christian is easy has been fooled. Our forbearers were eaten alive by lions for choosing what they thought was right. Even today, Christians and members of other religions are often ridiculed for believing what they do.

Religion is not meant to be "an excuse" for anything, and the people who use it as such do not have true faith. Religion is a way that some people find guidance and solace and it is supposed to - supposed to - make the believer stronger and wiser and better able to meet all that the world can throw at a person.

Note: The first time I tried to post this, it got lost somehow and didn't show up on the board. I think the first version sounded better, but oh well.

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by maxxrox:
Onua: I would love to see this evidence of a god. I want to know what you mean. Could you list this evidence in your next post, and is this evidence provable by the scientific method?

[Gryphon]

I know I don't have anything relevant to say, but...

Onua, you are amazing You too, Cress

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by Gryphon:
I know I don't have anything relevant to say, but...

Onua, you are amazing You too, Cress

Awww... There needs to be a *blushing furiously* smiley.

[Mel]

Onua:
I don't believe that the story of Genesis is literal (that would be a Creationist view)

That isn't necessarily true . I'm a creationist, but I don't really believed it happened like that. I don't know, maybe he made it faster, maybe he made it a little longer. Maybe he created the atom that created the Bing Bang which in turn created the universe (that's my friend and my own theory).
I think a lot of Christians just view it as a guideline for what God did. I mean, yes, we believe He created the world, but that doesn't have to mean he created it in 7 days. Besides, that's more like earth-days. And, it only really goes into creating earth. And there is more than one version. Some say Adam and Eve were made of dirt and things which would explain why our bodies decompose. It isn't really scientific. But it doesn't have to be. It covers our some of our most basic beliefs well enough.

Onua:
What scares me most are the people who don't believe in dinosaurs. I know, I know, it's mind-boggling, but these people are out there. o_O

...yeah, that is. XD

Exactly!!

Ok, I know, it seems like I've only picked and chose...one source, but I really don't have the time to really go into much of anything else. I'm sorry if I don't agree with Cress, but I'm impressed; she sticks up for her beliefs pretty damn well!

[Onua Wingstar]

Originally posted by Mel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Onua:
I don't believe that the story of Genesis is literal (that would be a Creationist view)

That isn't necessarily true . I'm a creationist, but I don't really believed it happened like that. I don't know, maybe he made it faster, maybe he made it a little longer. Maybe he created the atom that created the Bing Bang which in turn created the universe (that's my friend and my own theory).
I think a lot of Christians just view it as a guideline for what God did. I mean, yes, we believe He created the world, but that doesn't have to mean he created it in 7 days. Besides, that's more like earth-days. And, it only really goes into creating earth. And there is more than one version. Some say Adam and Eve were made of dirt and things which would explain why our bodies decompose. It isn't really scientific. But it doesn't have to be. It covers our some of our most basic beliefs well enough. </div>[quote]

Yeah, you're right. I was going to cite that passage in - Paul, I think it was? - about one day being like a thousand years in heaven, and a thousand years being like one day...I'm too lazy to find the actual quote, but that's pretty much what it says: that time in heaven is not like time anywhere else in the universe. (Timeheart, anyone?)

My theories aren't quite Church canon, either - they come from studying both the Bible and what I know of science, which is how I came to the conclusion that evolution and God don't have to compete.

I have friends, however, who think that Genesis refers to a literal period of seven time twenty-four hours. I've never been able to come right out and ask them about dinosaurs, though.

On your other note, this board is one place where I really feel comfortable coming out and saying, "I'm Roman Catholic, and this is what I believe." I feel like even though there are so many people here who all think in different ways, and who don't always agree, I never get the sense that there's any real antagonism or signs of things getting out of hand. I think that's what I love most about everyone here.

[the_peridexis]

I feel the same way, Onua. But I have a question, if you don't mind me asking, about the Bible.

I was reading it earlier (I own a lot of books on holy writs and that type of thing) and in the story of Adam and Eve I read that, as a "punishment" for how Eve had supposedly led Adam to sin by convincing hime to eat frm the tree, God said that he would increase her childbearing pains and make her more obediant to her husband. Sorry, I can't quote exactly because I don't have the Bible in front of me, but that's definitely what it said. Could you explain that to me? Because, sorry if it offends you, but I think that's pretty...well, messed up. So, not to get you riled or anything, but I'd like that clarified.

-peri