Philosophical topics/speeches

[EricG1793]

This is a thread intended to have a home for any philosophical content that we might want to talk about, suggested by Young Reader. This could include global warming, life on other planets, etc.

I do have a speech of my own. I have a few, actually, but we'll discuss one thing at a time until it can't be discussed anymore, then move on.

So my first subject: The universe's boundary (is there a possibility that there may be one?)

So... where does the universe end? Astronomers say it's infinite. Yet how can matter in which anything can travel through be infinite? It doesn't really make sense for it to on and on and on and on and on and on and on (and on for ten pages) *Takes great, deep, gasping breath* and on, however, it doesn't really make sense for there to be some kind of boundary, either.

From a perspective of the universe being infinite, everything has to end somewhere. For example, not even the Great Wall of China is infinite; it's the longest wall in the world, right, but it ends. Same concept with the universe: it has to end somewhere. If we could live forever (whatever forever means), and we sent a space shuttle to go in one direction and figured out how to make fuel for the shuttle and food out of nitrogen (THAT is far fetched, but please accept the point), the ship would have to hit some point when it physically couldn't go on.

However there's a snag with that. If there was some boundary in the universe, where there's a boundary, there has to be another side. And what WOULD the boundary be, anyway? As I mentioned before, a stone wall? And, again, a stone wall has to have two sides. If you were in that space ship and suddenly crashed in to the stone wall, what would be on the other side? And besides, in zero gravity condition, you could go above the wall to the other side, or under the wall. Because the wall would just be floating somewhere light centuries (saying the number of light YEARS the stone wall would be away from Earth is way to high) away. And it is highly unlikely that it's a stone wall; I was just using that as a random example.

Both having some kind of boundary and not having some kind of boundary have many nonsupporting facts. So it makes neither make sense to me. I don't really know which one to believe in.

Wow, I feel guilty; I always start the most complicated topics to talk about. Sorry everybody! *Sniffles*

[mythbusterfan]

ok

imagine this. you are inside of a massive glass sphere. you start walking. you walk forever and forever. and to you it looks like you are going in a straight line. you can keep walking in this "straight line" forever because it just curves back on itself. that's what the universe does. the only boundary is the curvature of space. and it does stretch infinitly simply because there's an infinite curve in space and time.

if you could live forever and send someone in a shuttle with all that impossible stuff you described. it could go in a line forever because it takes many many years for it to curve back around to where it started. and by then anything that could have been recognizable as the starting point will have moved or have been obliterated during the time you took to travel.

space is infinite cause it curves. the barrier is the curvature of space and time.

[EricG1793]

I never thought of it from that point of view. Wow! Great theory!

Although the only snag that I see is with the analogy of a sphere being the universe, and you're in a curve, but the boundary is so large that it seems like we're going in a straight line but we're curving around, is that there has to be something on the other side of this sphere, whether it be a virtual or physical thing. Just like I was saying with that stone wall- it must be there, but there also must be another side. And what do we call this "other side"? I suppose we could call the inside of the wall/sphere the universe, and then there would be another name for the other side of the sphere/wall, but that goes against the idea that the universe is infinite.

[Dragon Writer]

i agree with mythbuster fan...in fact, that's what i myself was thinking. that the universe must be round, i mean...it's either that, or you just...what? leave the universe and find yourself in NOTHINGNESS until the universe grows to catch up with you? and i think one reason it's infinite is that it's GROWING. there's no end, because it has yet to reach one. there's infinite space for it to reach out too, and grow into...of course, there's the whole theory that it'll collapse on itself one day, something i hope NOT to be around for. (if possible, i'd actually hope NONE of my decendants have to live through a sudden cease of existance...but considering what would have to happen for that to occure...) now, the question is, if that happens...what comes next? would it result in another big bang, another universe? did our own universe start with the destruction of the last one? i mean, it all is supposed to have started with some giant mass, the way MY teacher explained it, but if there was no universe, how could there be a mass? there must have been SOMETHING before us, in order for us to be here...and will the entire thing happen again, and again, and again in an ever lasting cycle?

though, there doesn't HAVE to be something outside of that sphere...it could simply be a lack of existance...of course, if the universe is simply nothingness, with occasional things in it, how can you say the nothingness out of the sphere is not part of the universe? or, if it isn't a sphere, maybe the nothingess goes on for all eternity...but then, if it has no bounderies, how would it grow? every theory has a flaw, it would seem, something to be thought out...maybe there's more then one universe, all grouped together, a thousand spheres, side by side, touching, but never quite a part of the others....it's hard to know. *liked talking abuot this with earth science teacher, and giving her some doubts on big bang theory* or just seeing what she thought...
i love philosophising.

[Rubywolf]

<span class="ev_code_RED">The problem is with your theories, are they based in facts or are they not theories at all but your random wondorings. *note* I have nothing against random wondorings. </span>

[mysss]

Sounds, Myth, like an actual theory- too weird to put my mind around, but it has a ring of the possibility of understanding it XD. It makes sense (to the point I understand, as I said).

[Rhi]

One theory I've heard is Big Bang - Expansion - Contraction - Big Smash - Big Bang...another is rather similar except that the loop has different universes that branch off of it...I don't really know, I think that it's kind of hard for our wonderfully wondering yet puny brains to try and contemplate something as immensely huge as our universe

[A Traveller with Magic]

Myth's description is a simplified version of an actual theory. However:
According to this FAQ the current most accepted model is a flat Universe.
(I highly recommend the FAQ and the rest of the tutorial.)

[Rhi]

Wow, so the Universe's expansion is accelerating. It's just like in WAW! And the quintessence thing sounded a lot like the Pullulus... *dresses in sackcloth and runs around screaming* just kidding

[Dragon Writer]

my wonderings ARE wonderings...but they're wonderings created after listening to various theories. :P and anyways, it's the UNIVERSE! we truly have no way of knowing htis, since we can hardly go to the end of the universe...so my wonderings have every bit as much a chance of being right as a thorougly calculated theory, tested by scientists a thousand times over. *grins* what REALLy interests me are temporal mechanichs...mostly cause i'm one of the few they don't give headaches too. i just figure i'll never figure it out for certain, since even if i figure it out, i won't know...so i might as well take my time, and think about it at my own pace rather then giving myself a headache.

[Frivs]

I really don't think we can come up with a theory to explain how infinately large the universe is. The human brain has a lot of trouble comprehending something that's infinite -- we tend to want to put boundaries on everything. Notice that a very large amount of scientific "advancement" is discovering what we can't do, and what is always absolute. I just went through a chemistry class, they have a lot of Laws lol

As far as life on other planets and such, my favorite teacher put it best: "I hope there is other intelligent life out there." I find the idea that we are "all alone" infinitely (hehe) ridiculous, and rather conceeded on our part. And frankly, if we're all the universe has produced, I'd be extremely scared.

Of course, I suppose if you want to assume the Big Guy in the Clouds zapped everyone here, and we're really the product of dust, ribs, and a large amount of incest, then yes, we could be the only ones here...and the universe could be a giant flower

[EricG1793]

Phew, I haven't had access to the Internet for a day and a half (well all day today I did but I was with the neighbor riding ATVs all day, more about that in the ToGR) so I have much to reply to.

I don't really have much to say, except put young reader in the spot light briefly:

Originally posted by young reader:
i agree with mythbuster fan...in fact, that's what i myself was thinking. that the universe must be round, i mean...it's either that, or you just...what? leave the universe and find yourself in NOTHINGNESS until the universe grows to catch up with you? and i think one reason it's infinite is that it's GROWING. there's no end, because it has yet to reach one. there's infinite space for it to reach out too, and grow into...

The universe probably is round. Although what's outside of it? Like you say, when you leave the universe and find yourself in just NOTHINGNESS... how could you be IN that nothingness if it is nothingness? And besides, if we were able to travel that far in to the universe, we'd be IN nothingness already, right? How would it change between after the boundary of the universe and the inside of the universe? *Sigh* Which brings us back to the question of even IF there IS a boundary, and if so what exactly it is....

I just thought of a good virtual model:

Picture a sphere (representing the universe) with all the planets, stars, etc. inside of it. When you put the sphere (caution: make sure the virtual sphere is waterproof ) in to a tub of water. The water goes around the sphere. So the sphere, modeling the universe, including us, stars, and other planets, is surrounded by water. The water fills up all space around the sphere. But, going back to the real life situation, what is the water modeling? That's the question. And I just thought of this... what if our universe wasn't "watertight"? What if whatever is on the outside of the universe suddenly leaked inside of the universe? Maybe that would cause a Big Bang, as young reader was saying. Who knows....

Well, I originally started posting with a couple points in my mind, but look how this turned out. And sorry young reader; I put you on the spotlight for more than briefly.

I won't talk about my second philosophical topic yet, as this one is going fiercely.... That'll make things less confusing.

Hey, I'm surprised Elder Math hasn't replied to this thread yet... this kind of discussion is in his department.

[Dragon Writer]

the idea that the universe is infiinte, that it has no boundry is nic3e...but then how is it expanding? how do you build upon infinity? therefore, by nature, there MUST be a boundry...just one that's forever expanding...is it a circle, that you just go around and around, ever growing bigger....is there more nothingness spawning from the center of it, pushing back the planets? or is it simply flat, but unreachable...nothing able to ever reach the boundry? or maybe you CAN reach it, but you can't cross it. maybe it's like hitting a wall...or maybe it throws you backwards. or maybe the act of reaching the universe is destructive. i've heard too random things in books, i patch together. one from piers anthony, one from hitch hikers guide to the galexy...NOt the best place to get thoughts, but these interests me. one says that the world is like an equation, all equaling zero. as long as the equation isn't solved, everythings fine. but if a bit of matter HAS that equation solved, if you realize it all comes down to zero...poof. everything gone. second one just said that there's a theory that if anyone ever figured out the universe, it would be destroyed and replaced with something even MORE complex. there's another that says this has already happened. it was just a joke...but maybe if we ever DID figure this out, if we ever solved the nature of the universe...there'd be no more universe. someone, somewhere, would destroy it. fine the little keystone, that can destroy everything else...our own wish for curiosity to be fulfilled can be destructive, sometimes...after all, if we ever satisfied it, found everything out...what would be left to do? we'd all be bored, with nothing more to ever solve, nothing more to find out....ok, so this is all random wonderings. but it's INTERESTING random wonderings.

[mythbusterfan]

well the sphere theory is applicable to the big bang.


imagine this.

you suspend a small firecracker in a smoke filled room. you light it. it explodes. the shock wave is visible and it creates a sphereical wave outward from the explosion.


same thing for teh big bang. which would explain the curvature of space. and inherantly time. now as for what's on the other side of the barrier of curvature. would be whatever matter fragments on the surface of the orriginal singularity. which were propelled faster than everything else. they'd be beyond the unviverse's event horizon and we simply cant see them because they move faster than light.

dd explained that quite nicely in high wizardry.
and i find that somewhat true.

[Rubywolf]

<span class="ev_code_RED">I've always thought of the universe as an ocean, and then schools of fish were galaxies. And, I've always thought that the universe wasn't the only universe. So, somewhere, or maybe somewhen, this ocean/univere mixes with another ocean/universe, so there's no bounderies....</span>