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  • Carmela's Ordeal?

    Ok, I know that there is a topic on this over in the 'Forthcoming books' section. Its over here.
    http://www.youngwizards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=611. It's a bit of thread necromancy to bring it back (the last post was in 2006), so I thought that I would re-initiate discussion somewhere fresh (feel free to merge if its a problem).

    I've been reading W@W again, and it seems to me more than ever, that part of the story is Carmela's ordeal. There are mentions in the other books that she is too old for it; even in Wizards at War itself:

    W@W; US Hardcover First Edition pp264

    Nita suddenly looked concerned. "You don't think she's going to pull a late onset Ordeal on us?"

    Kit shook his head. "She's too old. But even if she is getting good with the Speech, you won't find me complaining. I'd rather have her the way she is than like my other sister."
    However, there are other things later in the book, and just with Carmela's character itself, that lend me to think that events of W@W has led to the late onset Ordeal that Kit says she is too old for. Carmela is good with languages, and has picked the Speech up, merely by being around Kit and his Wizardly 'leakage' and has been "pushing chocolate" and speaking with other species. The thing that twigged my thoughts on this though, was when Carmela arrives in time to save Nita and Sker'ret.

    W@W US Hardcover, First Edition, pp. 306

    "Well, when you left, the TV and DVD player were still in sync with Spot," [Carmela] said. "While I was changing channels, I found where the two of them were storing the coordinates of all the places you were passing through. And since I didn't feel like just sitting around after you guys utterly ditched me, I started using the TV's browser to look up where you'd been. There's a lot about the Crossings. I thought 'Hey, I could go there! I know the address now.' and the TV showed me how --"
    The TV showed her how to make a worldgate (which she put in her closet). To me that sounds a lot like a manual. She also manages to remove the safety feature that Kit puts on her laser dissociator.

    I know that she leads Kit on, with the whole "television manual" thing, but could it be possible that she has actually found a "Television Manual"? As in her TV is her manual? It did show her how to build a worldgate, which to me seems like a pretty decent effort for someone who is not a wizard. Could the effects of the Pullulus have raised the age at which the ordeal is offered, especially if Carmela is the person for the job. After all, "there are no accidents". How old is Carmela, anyway? I always got the impression that she was about the same age as Ronan; how old is"too old" for one to be offered an Ordeal?

    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by Garrett Fitzgerald; October 25, 2010, 10:56:17 AM. Reason: unicode fix

  • #2
    That seems reasonable. Manuals are coming in all different forms; computers, Ipods, etc. A TV is just along those lines.

    We don't really know what the age is that deems people too old to become wizards, but I think it would be somewhere around 16 to 18....
    "at least i thought it was a wall. It sure felt like one. It was hard, it was flat. It stretched out on either side of me. You know... wall." -Bobby Pendragon

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    • #3
      the tv did it?

      I got the impression that Carmela is definitely NOT a wizard, but that the TV and the DVD player created the worldgate when Carmela asked. As communication devices who dwell in the same house where not only a wizard but also the One dwells in a physical form, can you put it past them to exhibit "wizardries" that don't necessarily need a wizard present to function? In addition to this, the house is pretty full of wizards at high power levels, along with Ronan+a Power+the spear, not very long before the worldgate is conjured.

      Worldgates don't necessarily need wizards to run them: (evidence: the Crossings is not run by a wizard - at least not till Sker'ret takes over - and most of the people using the gates there are, presumably, not wizards either.) What's to prevent Kit's TV (which already connects to a galactic/universal sort of internet/cable/chatroom) from using some of the latent power lying around the house?

      Besides, Kit's TV may have a sort of Spot-like sentience now (didn't Spot sit down and exchange dataaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...... with them?) What's to prevent the TV/DVD/Remote trio from becoming like the mobiles on Dairine's far-far-away planet? They seemed pretty talkative before spot showed up; you never know what Spot downloaded/uploaded.

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      • #4
        Like carmella said in W@W you don't have to be a wizard to save the universe. so i really believe that in time she could create a team or organization specilized in protecting the universe without magic. certainly on planets were people acknowledge wizardy there are kids who want to be but can't.
        It is better to die on your feat then to live a life on your knees-Emiliano Zapata.
        That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.-dad

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        • #5
          LOL I can definitely see your point Septy! Or maybe DD will allow Mela to become a wizard later, seeing as she's so good with languages, and she's not afraid to take action.
          Magic exists everywhere you look because you choose to see it. Magic exists inside of me because I welcome it. Magic and energy are one and the same. Energy and magic will always exist.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wiccangixie View Post
            LOL I can definitely see your point Septy! Or maybe DD will allow Mela to become a wizard later, seeing as she's so good with languages, and she's not afraid to take action.
            exactly me point... it's nice to have someone in agreement.
            It is better to die on your feat then to live a life on your knees-Emiliano Zapata.
            That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.-dad

            Comment


            • #7
              SpacePen:
              Worldgates don't necessarily need wizards to run them: (evidence: the Crossings is not run by a wizard - at least not till Sker'ret takes over - and most of the people using the gates there are, presumably, not wizards either.) What's to prevent Kit's TV (which already connects to a galactic/universal sort of internet/cable/chatroom) from using some of the latent power lying around the house?
              True and interesting comment about using the latent power lying around the house.
              I went over to the ErrantryWiki and had a look at the Worldgate and Crossings Intercontinual Worldgating Facility pages, just to see if how the Crossings was bulit was mentioned in there. The first paragraph regarding worldgates is:

              "A means of fast access to other physical locations within a universe by means of a breach in the structure of spacetime. Worldgates can be naturally occurring or artificial. In the second case, the simplest way to produce them is always via wizardry. "
              So, the naturally occuring ones, like Grand Central Station are a result of population pressure, where 'population pressure' is a different issue on each different planet, while the Crossings is an artificially built. Interestingly, the Crossings was built where there was a naturally occuring worldgate was on Rirhath B. I wonder if it was built by Wizards or other methods; as there are so many worldgates in one location I'd be willing to bet that due to sheer number of the worldgates that using wizardry to help build them in the first case would be useful.

              I see running them and building them from scratch as different things (although the Crossings probably has some pretty spiffy soft- and hardware to allow manipulation of the worldgates by non-wizards).

              Space Pen:
              Besides, Kit's TV may have a sort of Spot-like sentience now (didn't Spot sit down and exchange dataaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...... with them?) What's to prevent the TV/DVD/Remote trio from becoming like the mobiles on Dairine's far-far-away planet? They seemed pretty talkative before spot showed up; you never know what Spot downloaded/uploaded.
              True, but if he had exchanged Manual "dataaaaaaaaaaaaaa", wouldn't that make the TV like him? A kind of manual? I guess it could make the TV like the mobiles, which is interesting; the TV is the wizard

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              • #8
                I just want to throw a couple of general thoughts into this.

                (a) If this is an Ordeal, it's a really weird one. Not that weird ones are apparently impossible. I'm looking at the Ordeal page in the Concordance, which says specifically that some Ordeals can be "arrested or unusually prolonged". What it doesn't say anything about is that there seems to be an understanding that you don't go on Ordeal until you're offered the Oath and have taken it. This doesn't ever seem to have happened to Carmela. At least she's never said anything about it, and you'd think she would, if only to get up Kit's nose. (As in the sequence in W@W when she's talking about the TV manual -- I find it hard to believe she wasn't doing that specifically to make Kit crazy.)

                (b) There is an entry in the Concordance for something called paramagia (I assume DD derived this term in the same way terms like "paramedic" or "paralegal" were coined). Reading it, I start wondering if Carmela is -- I guess you'd have to coin another term and call her a paramagical or paramagian or something along those lines. A person who can use fragments of spells or the Speech and produce results that aren't strictly natural, even though it's the power in the Speech itself that's doing the work and not the person using it (see the entry on enacture and the one on charms).

                (c) One other thought just in passing. Kit seems really sure that it's too late for Carmela to have an Ordeal. But both he and Nita have been really sure about things in the past and been wrong -- or found they hadn't read enough in the Manual to be clear about all the details. I'm trying to think of anyplace in the canon where one of the senior wizards has said conclusively that there's an upper age limit, but I can't think of one at the moment.
                Lee / Forum Administrator

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                • #9
                  Please can I add a general plea that folks avoid putting anything potentially spoilerish into the titles of posts, because these appear in the forum's summaries that everyone sees, whether they want to or not...

                  In this case something like "What's Carmela up to?" would have been better than "Carmela's Ordeal".

                  Perhaps a better alternative would be to exclude the forum sections specifically reserved for spoilerish discussions of new books from the list of sections which contribute to the "Latest posts" summary.

                  Thanks.
                  Last edited by Lazy Leopard; January 24, 2009, 09:44:33 AM. Reason: Clarification...
                  -- Rick.

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                  • #10
                    I have a couple of thoughts on this one.

                    first - Carmela loves to tag along with everybody else, but she doesn't seem to want to do it the coventual way. She wants to help, but maybe she doesn't want to... commit to the entire responsibility. I don't know if she is doing it for Life, for her family and friends (who are wizards, going off on adventures), or because she simply like it, and that it the only reason.

                    second - I don't think that there should be an age too old to become a wizard. Wizardry is full of possibilities. You can always feel the same way at a later age as you did at a younger one. Just because you get older doesn't mean that you won't be willing to sacrifice somethine, or everything, or that you no longer believe in things. The only limit on age that I can see is that if you are older and feel that way, why weren't you offered it sooner?

                    oh, and third - If Carmela was on ordeal, wouldn't she be using wizardry? I think other wizards can tell when you do, at least a little. They can sense the magic. If Kit gets really worried about Carmela being a wizard, he should just check the manual. If she is, we should know soon enough - a wizard checks their status a lot. Carmely would be impossible to miss.
                    "And on he went, out of sight in unhurried grace; the true dark angel, the unfallen Destroyer, the Pale slayer who never really dies -- seeking for pain to end." Deep Wizardry, page 355 Listen, and I'll tell you a story... of the wind in the trees, and the sun, the moon and the stars... of all of Earth dancing

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                    • #11
                      I'd feel that a world gate is a little more than a charm. I guess it would depend a lot on what the 'wizardly leakage' did to the TV and DVD player, and to Carmela. The reason that we're given for a wizard becoming a wizard is because they are the answer to a question or a problem. I'd say Carmela was a pretty good solution to the problem at the Crossings.

                      I can't find anywhere that the seniors (or indeed any wizard) says where there is an upper limit to the age that a wizard is offered an oath. The Concordance entry for Latency, however mentiones that its during this time that a human (read Terran/Earth based) wizard is most likely to be offered the Oath. I'm not sure exactly how old Carmela is, but she's definitely still a teenager (i.e. still going through puberty).

                      The 'enacture' page is a good point; but then again, she did manage to get around the safety switch that Kit had placed on the 'hair dryer'. To me that indicates that she has some understanding of what Kit did to it to make it 'safe'.

                      ... he should just check the manual. If she is, we should know soon enough - a wizard checks their status a lot. Carmely would be impossible to miss.
                      One would have thought that about 'Aunt Annie' in AWAb too, though.

                      Maybe I'm reading into it too much; trying to see something thats not there, just because I think it would be cool...

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                      • #12
                        That would be incredibly cool. She might be a wizard, after all. I just think that she won't do it in a conventional way.
                        Ooh, another thought - maybe Carmela will help in A Wizard of Mars? That isn't exectly a new idea, I suppose, but maybe she will have to help Kit (regarding the summary). I know it is a little bit of Nita's thing to help Kit, but Carmela isn't going to let her brother get hurt. So even if she doesn't take an oath, or if she hasn't taken an oath, she can have another chat with the tv.
                        "And on he went, out of sight in unhurried grace; the true dark angel, the unfallen Destroyer, the Pale slayer who never really dies -- seeking for pain to end." Deep Wizardry, page 355 Listen, and I'll tell you a story... of the wind in the trees, and the sun, the moon and the stars... of all of Earth dancing

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                        • #13
                          Mela seems to have a potent way of getting around magic, not to mention she understand the speech pretty well. I think DD will def have to make her a wizard, and if not, she'll become what I said before, as well as Septy, a defender of Earth in one way or another; wizard or not.
                          Magic exists everywhere you look because you choose to see it. Magic exists inside of me because I welcome it. Magic and energy are one and the same. Energy and magic will always exist.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alla View Post
                            I'd feel that a world gate is a little more than a charm.
                            yes, but think of the peridexis. ANY wizardry, including this "paramagia" mentioned in the errantry concordance is likely to be augmented.

                            And it's not like Carmella up and got herself a custom worldgate to any old place. She only knew that the "next" place Spot went was the Crossings. She recognizes the Crossings for what it is and probably used the tv to book a reservation. Since the Crossings is already set up to be a 'hub' for worldgates, it's more than likely that, given enough money, you could probably book a reservation for a temporary "pickup" worldgate to get you to the crossings from wherever you live. Just send your credit card number and your address (and some spatial indicators as to where you want the worldgate to open at your place of residence), and the computer setup at the Crossings can probably do most (if not all) of the worldgate configuration for you.

                            We know that Carmella doesn't have any problem pushing chocolate and she's already discovered how to buy stuff on the intergalactic shopping channel - she may even have a galactic debit card or two and she's probably filthy rich. So I see no reason why she wouldn't have paid whatever price was necessary to order a "pickup" worldgate from her closet in order to follow her brother.

                            Again, note that plenty of non-wizards use, run, and configure worldgates at the Crossings every day. There's no reason to suppose that use of, ordering of, or configuring of a worldgate requires the user to build a wizardry any more than me posting this to this forum requires me to build a computer and lay the DSL cable that connects it to other computers.

                            Further note that Carmela's main interests seem to be boys (Ronan), shopping, annoying her brother, showing off her independence, showing off her prowess in foreign languages, and getting in on what she considers her brother's "fun". Sure, she'll save the universe along the way, but she's not Dairine. She doesn't have a compelling need to fight Darth Vader/the Lone Power and become a Jedi Knight/Wizard in the service of Life. She's more like Han Solo than Luke Skywalker (and as everyone knows, Solo may do his part in fighting the Empire to save the universe, but a Jedi he is definitely not!).
                            Last edited by SpacePen; January 27, 2009, 06:45:06 AM.

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                            • #15
                              I think Carmela could've already been on her ordeal without knowing about it. Isn't that kind of what happened to Daryl? I agree that Carmela could've somehow figured out how to get a worldgate into her house without using magic, but it seems unlikely to me. I think she's a wizard but she doesn't know it, and she isn't in the manual for the same reason that Aunt Annie wasn't until Nita figured it out herself.

                              I think it's funny how you said that Carmela 'pushes chocolate' but it describes it perfectly! This may not make any sense, but my favorite line from the series is when Carmela says something like, "I'm gonna break this bar of chocolate into little pieces, and I am gonna eat it all." I just love that.

                              Getting back on topic, I don't think it's possible to learn the speech unless you're a wizard, or on your ordeal, which leads me to my previous conclusion that Carmela was on her ordeal already. It might be possible that she did know that she was on her ordeal (if she was). Couldn't she have done what Diarine did and taken the oath without anyone knowing?

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