Perfection of Evolution?

[Luckdragon]

I think it's really nice for DD to express how a species can evolve into pure energy, but is that really a realistic view?

The weird thing is that I also believe in this, but I've just become skeptical. Is the end of evolution really pure energy?

If we suppose that pure energy is more complex than organic matter, then it would make sense, in a pre-Darwinism way... I personally believe that from conventional evolution comes intellegence (whether by random natural selection or what... We don't know if intellegence is a favored trait or what...), but I believe that there's also a kind of personal evolution. Through intellectual, spirtual, and emotional enlightenment, we unlock portions of our brain (of course this is extremely difficult for humans at this time, as there have been no recorded cases of spontaneous ascension...). Hyper-genius is already like Einstein level, and anything beyond that is probably psionic manefestation.

The problem is that it seems kind of weird for two wizards to suddenly unlock the mind/souls of an entire race of people. It can be theorized that because they helped the lone wizard (I don't remember how, haven't read the book in a while *guilty face*), their entire race also 'ascended' because they are all tied to her.

Um... discuss?

[Peter Murray]

I think you meant this to go into Wizard's Holiday.

If you haven't read Wizard's Holiday, don't read this thread!

I have to say it's not an original idea (sorry ). Arthur C. Clarke, either in the novel 2001 or scenes cut from it, uses the idea of a society developing from our sort of bodies, into brains in mechanical bodies/space vessels, and finally into pure energy. I don't know if he was first, he wasn't last. Star Trek's done it at least twice.

Is it _possible_? Ummm. As far as we know, our evolution has depended on some features of DNA, like its ability to reproduce, and do so with occasional errors. If this step is possible, it would be a final step, unless the energy forms had some different way to continue evolving.

*rereads end of WH* It's not that Nita and Kit unlocked their minds, they just provided an outside viewpoint to get Quelt to realise what was wrong with her world. It was the Alaalids who actually decided to do it, and Quelt who forced the decision.

[talkingbeast]

What bugged me about this was that individuals don't evolve, species do...
although I spose the rules might be different when wizardry is involved.

[Rysade]

Clarke, in his anthology, The Nine Billion Names Of God had a story about an encounter voyagers had with an energy-being that had been ejected from the sun. Is this what you refer to, PM?

It's important to remember that nobody's going to evolve into pure energy unless there's some advantage to it.

Also, I've yet to see energy take any form other than matter and electricity that could hold anything resembling life. You wanna go 'pure energy,' then there ought to be a meduim for it. As yet, all I see is the internet.

[Peter Murray]

I don't remember that story. No, the aliens that left the monoliths all over the place had left material bodies behind them and evolved into energy, but they didn't forget the races they'd left monoliths with.

As for species evolving, not individuals, that's true - but how does a material form give birth to an energy offspring, which this evolution step needs? The only way is by transformation.

[Rysade]

...

I THINK I agree. Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by "transformation." You mean, editing species through technology?

[Peter Murray]

I just meant a transformation of matter into energy, however it's achieved. Evolving "life as we know it" into "life as we definitely don't know it and have trouble even believing in" needs that as a step in their evolution.

[semiramis]

Originally posted by Luckdragon:
Is the end of evolution really pure energy?

mm... actually, if you think about it in a purely scientific sense, evolution isn't really to anywhere so much as from. The eternal coincidental battle to get out of the great jaws of extinction, and what. So I suppose if a species mutated and then found some way to survive like that, then, yeah, it would work.

...It's like Rincewind, from PTerry's Discworld. "To doesn't matter. Focus on the from. Focus on the from!"

(I'm thinking there'd have to be a REALLY big cataclysm in order for this to happen, tho. Something like the star going nova, or something, where only the individuals with the specific trait that allows them to convert to a pure energy form would allow them to survive... or sth. like that...)

[Luckdragon]

Terribly sorry, this issue has been roiling in my brain for so long and I've managed to botch it up twice.

Yes, this should be in "Wizard's Holiday" (it was late, forgive me...)

Yes, species, or at least populations evolve.

The main problem is the usage of the word evolution. I should not have used that word, it ended up complicating matters.

It's just that every example I've seen of a transformation into a higher being or ascension into a higher state of existance involves a personal choice. (examples include: Holiday, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and Stargate SG-1).

Is this a well thought-out theory?

Should the sudden jump from one kind of life to another involve the consent of the organism?

My personal theory is that life exists to observe the universe (or hyper/megaverse, if you want to go into higher dimensions or something) otherwise, the universe could not exist under quantum principles.

If so, what is the function of the radically different forms of life? (I'm ignoring ecology and the concept of intellegence for simplicity's sake).

What parameters differentiate organic, mecha, crystalline, and energy life? Also, in this universe, everything has a voice. Does that mean they are alive? If so, what is the qualification of life?

Is energy the highest form? Should we assume that there is a hierarchy?

Do things like Kit's tv have a spirit? Does that mean that they are alive? If one defines life as able to observe, then can they?

Um... discuss?

*did this just get way too deep?*

[drea]

Ooh. Now that's a curious point.

Spot keeps evolving, doesn't he? Nita described as sort of molting.

According to the book, things that aren't alive still have emotions. But by definition, doesn't having emotions make them have to be alive?

That would be a really cool point for evolution. If all of a sudden, emotion didn't mean anything at all.

(edit)

Oh! And during AWH, the Alaalids reached their next step in evolution, and during that time, they became a sort of energy encapsuled soul type thingy, didn't they?

But after that, there must be a next step. Something closer to the Powers That Be.

[Rysade]

I prefer to think of evolution taking place on a very small scale. Affirmation of an action allows the creature to continue, punishment stops it. What kind of baby steps can be taken into the realm of pure energy beings? Is there some in between?

By transformation, you mean, through technology, or through evolution?

[Peter Murray]

I think it was technology in the case of the 2001 aliens. On Alaalu, it may have been wizardry or willpower to catch up with where they should already have been.

I can't really see how you can take small steps to change from a species of matter beings to energy beings. Unless they start turning into superheroes... Lightning Lad, Sun Boy and other matter beings that can emit radiation. Somehow, they'd have to have an increased amount of energy, and develop through a series of generations where the high-energy-ratio beings had an advantage over lower-energy-ratio beings, until eventually you had 100% energy, 0% matter.

Which is just a long way of saying "evolve from matter to energy", isn't it? Huh.

[semiramis]

Originally posted by Drea:
But after that, there must be a next step. Something closer to the Powers That Be.

Interesting... that makes me think of that one thing the WD said in HW... Something along the lines of "mortals will one day surpass the Powers, and we will rejoice in that..."

I had personally thought that was a more symbolic/metaphysical statement... but perhaps it's a bit more literal that I'd thought...?

[Fox]

PM some great points there!! I always thought that the altamate evolution would be into an energy state!! But I do really believe that evolution happens in huge steps!! great big leaps! I do feel that maybe in some small way humans won't be able to envole much now without the aid of tec!! which I think is really sad because I also believe with my heart and soul that the mind is a up tapped resource!! and the power of thought and will is underesimatted!! I do think that believing something with all your heart and soul would creat what ever you was thinking!! sad i Know but thats what I think! The next evolutionary step for humans is going to be two/three fold!
1. Developement of the mind,
2. Gene advancements will mean changes in our bodies,
3. Tech enhancements (which in a way will be an evoulationary step! unless we advance the organic side of tech!! always wondered if it would be possible to grow a house??!! makeing new speices of a sort)
Fox