Wouldn't it be cool if DD made Nita and Kit Powers

[Lamarquise]

Emeraldshine - If you're right, that's sort of scary. Because if Nita is going somewhere Kit can't, and it's more than a temporary thing, they're going to get split up, and that would be upsetting. I mean, they're partners. Shouldn't they be able to handle the crises in their lives as partners?

(But then, Nita has always been the main character. Diane has tried to give Kit some of his own storylines, I guess, but Nita is still the one most of the really interesting stuff happens too. Unfortunately, because Kit is a fun character.)

[Peter Murray]

Lamarquise said:
Because if Nita is going somewhere Kit can't, and it's more than a temporary thing, they're going to get split up, and that would be upsetting.

What if Nita goes somewhere that Kit doesn't, realises, gets upset, and pulls him there after her? Then it wouldn't be a matter of her going somewhere he can't, but of her going somewhere he can't go unaided. And they could stay partners. Assuming they're still partners after DD's hints from AWOM, anyway...

[Lamarquise]

Ah criminey...

What exactly are those hints? I hadn't seen anything indicating anything more serious than that Kit was going to have to make some decisions about a situation on Mars, decisions someone might take issue with. But if we know Kit, he'll find a way to fix things if he gets anything wrong. And one would think that Nita would be there to help him.

[Birdhead]

How many of you have read The Book of Night with Moon? Because I think after reading that,

"Those who refuse to serve the Powers
become the tools of the Powers.
Those who agree to serve the Powers
Themselves become the Powers."

starts to mean something a little different- to me, anyway. I won't spoil the end of BONWM, but to me that suggests that while this quote probably can be taken literally, on a daily basis it's best to be applied more loosely- so that those who serve the Powers become the Powers in the sense that they become avatars of the Powers. The way Pralaya and Logo became avatars of the LP, and the way (BONWM spoilers, highlight to read) <span class="ev_code_WHITE">Rhiow and the rest of the Cats of Grand Central become avatars of the Powers when fighting the Great Serpent (and Haath, who's in some ways an avatar himself)</span>. In each of these cases, the character in question is still her- or himself after the fact. By contrast, while Ponch and the Hesper retain aspects of their personality post-transformation, they really have become totally different things- changed their very Order of Being. And also it's latent in them and doesn't come as a consequence of wizardry or serving the Powers. I suppose for Ponch you could make an argument for him becoming a Power as part of the "wizardry leakage" that was happening around Kit, but that seems highly unlikely and personally I would argue the reverse, that the weird stuff happening around Kit's house had nothing to do with Kit at all.

Yes, of course, both Ponch and the Hesper had to make a choice, and that came as a consequence of their contact with wizardry- but never from them doing wizardry themselves. So Kit and Nita becoming Powers would be something totally different.

Lamarquise said:

If Nita and Kit continue on and serve the Art the rest of their lives--which seems pretty likely--they're likely to continue on in that service after their deaths. When they'll have the chance to learn and develop everything they didn't have the time or opportunity to in mortality. And eventually, they'll have learned and grown so much that they will be Powers indeed, however far off that might seem at the present time.

I would concur that that's far more likely, and again compare that to BONWM: (spoilers) <span class="ev_code_WHITE">after her ninth death Saash went on the the tenth life. I can't remember the exact quote but Saash was definitely something akin to the Powers though not an actual Power like Iau.</span> A Concordance entry on that would be awfully useful, actually.

For one thing the books always talk about Nita more than Kit.

Um, guys, a couple of you have mentioned this- you do realise that, as Lamarquise said, Nita's the main character? Not "a" main character, the main character- she's the narrator, too; of course "everything happens to her", she's the storyteller! True, both Dairine and Kit have narrated; but only in those cases where the narrative is split, and another narrator is necessary- HW, Alone, Holiday, War. She needs two narrators to tell multiple plot threads in these cases- but the story is still about Nita. Even in Alone where, let's be honest, Nita's recovery from her mom's death is only tangential to the actual plot, Nita narrates at least half of the book. So, um, I wouldn't necessarily take any of that to mean that Nita is more important than Kit except for structural reasons.

The other kids on the moon seemed to have heard about them too: "Are you the kids who did the Song of the Twelve?" "you're messing up the statistics" (I'm at work so I can't look up accurate quotes).

I agree-but I don't think it's because they're going to become Powers. I think there are two possibilities, neither of which are mutually exclusive:
1. Nita and Kit are particularly talented (there is textual evidence for this: in HW Tom says to Harry "...there's considerable talent in your line...") You can also make a case for the LP considering them a particular thorn in his side being evidence of unusual talent; and many of the things they've been involved in, particularly reading (and changing) the Book in SWYTBAW and the Reconfiguration in HW do suggest that they're important as wizards. And the Song of the Twelve is of course an important wizardry to anyone who lives in that area or is affected by it (that's, you know, a <i>lot</i> of sea right there.)

W@W is another example, and Holiday to a lesser extent- there it was more a case of, um, Ponch saving their asses, and it's probably best to remember that a lot of wizards must do some fairly spectacular stuff; I wouldn't say helping another species to Ascend is common, but it's also probably not totally unbelievably important like the rising of the Hesper or the Reconfiguration (IMO the Reconfiguration is probably the most important thing to happen in wizardry since... ever, possibly. Of course Dairine was involved in that and we know that she had a spectacular debut, but still.

Oh, and BONWM has a textual example of Nita and Kit being talented; Tom or Carl sent them to help out Rhiow and she says to Arhu that that shows he considers them (N&K) to be some of the best talent he has available.

2. Foreshadowing that Nita and Kit are going to become Seniors. Actually this really goes with 1, but on top of comments about how talented they are, Nita has been thinking a lot about what it means to be a Senior and what it takes to be one. Obviously this wouldn't happen immediately, and probably not within the scope of the series; but I think you can make a good argument for it.

If I had my books with me I'd try to look some of the things that I think support this for me; the two examples I can remember are
-Nita and Tom talking in Alone about the amount of vocab Tom has to do this year, and she says "Remind me never to become a Senior." He replies "As if you can avoid it, when it happens to you..." (quotes from memory not verbatim)
-In HW Nita's Dad's ancestor was "a wizard, and one of the best..."; he was also made a Senior very you.

Okay, the evidence is all pretty slim, but I believe it. :P

And um. WOM hints? where??????

[Sean L.]

I fully agree with the Senior idea as proposed, and salute Tui for her memory in coming up with these quotes.

They've had a fairly eventful ascension to wizardhood, and accomplished some spectacular things - as others have referenced, not everyone goes through the Reconfiguration, the Song of Twelve, being present at the birth of a species that did not lose the choice, the Reenactment, kernel-working, saving an Abdal, saving a Sun once or twice, and effecting the rise of the Hesper.

I'd wager to say +90% of the wizards don't have this kind of track record - if they did, the battle would probably be a lot more won than it seems to be. So with this experience, it sounds about right for a senior-track career. Interesting side note is that Nita's speciality keeps changing, and a quote Tom makes is that Seniors refuse to specialize too deeply in one field. This could be further proof, depending on how you take it.

---
That being said, the idea of them turning into Powers doesn't turn my stomach as much as it has some other people in the top - it made me think of Stranger in a Strange Land , rather, where the protagonist is alluded to being a superior being after he passes beyond the mortal coil. That aside, however what are Nita and Kit but representatives of the powers when they work in their service?

[Fox]

I would be quite owrrid if they became Powers. I've posted on here before somewhere but i cant remember when, anyway. If they became powers woudl that not effectivly end the series? As it is they are wizards having adventures etc, by becoming powers it would change all that. Bet I'm way off the mark, plus i hope they dont become senior's yet either, let them travel more and have some more adventures before they have to stay on earth alot more as seniors.
Fox

[Peter Murray]

<LI> AWOM hints? See January's chat and the answer to "tori: DD: who is your favorite character in the YWs?" and just after that. (I spoiler-protected some lines - for those who haven't seen that before, select the missing text, and it should appear.)

<LI> Tui: I don't think "narration" is quite right. For instance, in Edgar Rice Burroughs' A Princess of Mars and its sequels, the story is usually told in the first person, as "I saw a tower in the distance", not "John saw a tower in the distance". I'd say that Nita was more of a viewpoint character.

<LI> If they become Seniors or Powers, will it end the series? Again, in the Mars books, the main character was given such a high position at the end of the third book that it was hard for him to continue the series. So the next seven books had other main characters, while he was a supporting character. He returned in the eleventh book as the main character.

I don't think they will become Powers, but Seniors is more likely. Can Seniors be the stars of interesting stories? Well... Rhiow's been a Senior throughout the Feline Wizards books.

Besides, look at WAW. (Spoilers follow.) <span class="ev_code_white">I don't think DD would make Nguyet and Tuyet main characters - as they live in Vietnam, they'd be hard for the target audience to identify with. Darryl's a possible, but I don't suppose he can leave the Solar System - perhaps not even the Earth-Moon system. Dairine and Spot as the main characters of a series hunting for Roshaun?</span> Or maybe Hotshot could have a book to show why he's such a hot shot ? Or some more of those Irish wizards from AWAb.

[Birdhead]

I agree that having Nita and Kit becoming Powers or Seniors would pretty definitively ruin the series; it would totally change the tone and purpose and stories that can be told. However, like I said, I reckon Nita and Kit are being set up to be Seniors "some time in the future" (It's like the eternal present- it's always now everywhere- only it's... the eternal future, right.)

Okay, PM, you're right about the narration.

... but still, Nita has been the "viewpoint character" (I'm sure there's a technical name for it that I don't recall) for at least 70% of the books. My point stands.

Thanks for the link, as well; I checked the March chat but didn't think to check January.

Is Rhiow a Senior or an Advisory? Because she has visits from Seniors a lot and I'm pretty sure she reacts to them as if they had a different status to her. I'd have to check though, my books are in another house right now.

As for identification with characters... I really doubt that there are going to be any books written in the mainstream Wizards series that don't involve Nita and Kit at the very least to the extent in which they were involved in HW. It just doesn't seem likely. (I loved the people you mentioned though and could definitely identify with them- I think their being Vietnamese is pretty irrelevant.)

[Peter Murray]

About Rhiow: Good point. Big Meow is the easiest book to check, due to Adobe Reader's find command and it only has "senior" in lower case, and refers to Rhiow as the "senior gate technician". I'd capitalised that in my memory.

You know, books could start with the Seniors, Nita and Kit, giving the new main characters information that they need. I'm sure DD could make that work if she wanted to.

It's not so much the fact they're Vietnamese, as the fact that they don't live in the US, in a culture that's familiar to US readers. Would they go to the mall? Is their daily life much like that of most readers?

For that matter, does the school system that Nita and Kit are in make more sense to you than it does to me without Kathy's explanations?

[Birdhead]

You know, books could start with the Seniors, Nita and Kit, giving the new main characters information that they need.

It would work, sure; but I don't think it would ne a YW book. I dunno, man, they're about Nita and Kit, not about Young Wizards in general- I mean, they are, hence Dairine and the exchanges, but they're really about Nita and Kit's personal growth/journey of discovery/coming of age blah blah you know what I mean blah. (in a positive way, I mean I like this format.) And if they become Seniors, that's something that's going to happen after they've come of age in that great tradition, after their growth as adolescents, as young wizards, is done. They'll still be growing and learning, but not in the same format. And I don't want to relegate them to that position, frankly.

It's not so much the fact they're Vietnamese, as the fact that they don't live in the US, in a culture that's familiar to US readers. Would they go to the mall? Is their daily life much like that of most readers?

But Nita and Kit don't really live in the same culture as me, either; for one thing the earlier books at least are set before I was even born, and as you say, it's a completely different country. The differences aren't as dramatic, I suppose, but there are differences and they're not insignificant.

Also? I really think that's a form of American Editor syndrome, the sort that has them changing pullovers to jumpers and tube to subway and I don't know what-all else. As is often said, american readers aren't stupid, american editors just think they are. Which is debatable, of course, but I agree with the maxim that follows: don't stress too much about context! I've read, and understood, and enjoyed books from all parts of the world and many different eras- how great is the difference between 20th century wellington and 16th century England? C18th USA? And I was young, too. Adults are the ones who find it difficult; young readers are much more flexible.

[Slash]

It would be cool but if it happined It would not happen soon... un less DD says so but I dont think she will.... and as I said If she will It wont be for a long time!

[Hi!]

Well, I think it wouldn't make much of a differance, because in the eighth book they become Seniors anyways. it would be cool if they started going out and stuff too. They'd be awesome and it would be cool. and funny.

[Sean L.]

They aren't Seniors...I suggest you go back and re-read. They're merely empowered for a limited time while a catastrophe takes place.

[Fox]

WOW a huge misunderstanding there dude, In a way they became seniors because out of the kids around they where some of the most experianced and senior in age But not 'Senior' Senior. hmmmmm
Fox

[Machimo]

That's been like my YW dream, since, like, I read the first book. I think that if something like this happened, or something of the sort, it would be sooo dang cool. >_<

I'm not so sure about anything happening to Kit of this sort, but as for Nita... it's actually rather possible. Maybe it's just been me, but I've always been so obsessed with the idea of Neets become a Power or sorts, so at every mention or hinting, I always noticed, even before DD made a bigger point of it. As an example, when Nita's power levels are going UP instead of down, she seemed most uneffected in book eight when everyone else's powers were going and gone, her abilities, and the fact that she can sense "Kernals" and such, in a way, seems godly (I mean, she's controlling the heart of a world...)

I don't think that Nita and Kit should be made actual Powers That Be, but like Saash from The Book of Night With Moon cat-wizards series, she got a "Tenth Life." If feline wizards can live on after death and become something "more," then shouldn't humans have something else of a similar sort?? It makes sense. Saash was good wizard, but in my opinion Nita has done even more and so much better, so the chance for her moving on, maybe after death, seems even greater.

It's true that the series wouldn't be the same if this were to happen though, because an immortal can't die or really be wounded, so it wouldn't be the same or anything. But if this were to happen at the END of YW.... I'm all for it, maybe a bit more than that. ^_~ I just really hope DD actually plans on something of the sort...

I really feel the same way about this. I hope Nita does become a sort of Power - or maybe joins the peridexis, so she'd still be a big part of wizardry and the action. Poor Kit...but I'd love that. ^_^
Maybe in WoM? I really hope so...