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  • DW Group Reading Thread

    So, it is the 27th and thus time to start discussing Deep Wizardry!

    Here are some things I found interesting/had questions about:

    Do great white sharks have apparent 'immortality', as Ed claims?
    Can a shark be a wizard, now that Ed has set a precendent and proven the exsistence (at least to himself) of Timeheart?

    Hey, this could almost be the sharks' Choice! They were neutral before (delayed Choice?), but now Ed, their Master, has thrown himself solidly on the side of Light.

    And is Hotshot a wizard, or not? I'm leaning to "not", at least at the beginning of DW, but he seems to be on that path....

  • #2
    I thought Hotshot was a Wizard? Just a lower-level wizard than S'reee? I'm 3/4 done the book, and definitely remember being introduced to Hotshot as him being a Wizard.

    As for Ed and immortality... here's my thinking. He's got to have some mad backstory...
    To me, he might've been around to have known the original shark that played his part in the Song, but denied the part because he wanted nothing to do with Wizards at the time. There's actually a quote I'll reference later on, but I think Ed was in trouble, or his [potential] mate was in trouble, and Wizards saved him and his mate died... or maybe his would-be mate was a Wizard... okay, sorry, I was reading right before the Song today, and had lots of speculation about Ed.

    And... I have to mention it, even though I do not want to get into another confusing conversation about timeline... but... woah. Kit is twelve in this book. Nita's thirteen! Mrs. Callahan going on and on about "other things" is definitely too much, especially for the book being published in 1985.

    I have some amazing quotes from this book that I wrote on my bookmark and will bring up later...

    But now I must end this long post and squeeze SilveredBlue for making this topic.
    ..................~*Wolf*~..................
    AIM: CeliaWells8 / Twitter: Scifi_Nerd
    Won 2nd Place for Topic Of The Week 04, January, 2010!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Wolf View Post
      I thought Hotshot was a Wizard? Just a lower-level wizard than S'reee? I'm 3/4 done the book, and definitely remember being introduced to Hotshot as him being a Wizard.
      I don't remember that, but I think I missed it.

      My reasoning was that he was not helping S'reee when she was injured, and he said, "A wizard!" like he was surprised and ran off right after Nita said hello. Why would he do those things if he was a wizard himself? Odd..

      Although he did participate in the Song, though.
      To me, he might've been around to have known the original shark that played his part in the Song, but denied the part because he wanted nothing to do with Wizards at the time. There's actually a quote I'll reference later on, but I think Ed was in trouble, or his [potential] mate was in trouble, and Wizards saved him and his mate died... or maybe his would-be mate was a Wizard... okay, sorry, I was reading right before the Song today, and had lots of speculation about Ed.
      But I thought that he WAS the original Master-Shark, who could never die (until, of course, the end *sob*). And didn't he say he had never loved?

      "You, young and never loving, and I, old and never loved. Such a Song the sea has not seen." (and all quotes are from memory, so there might be a few discrepencies.) And sharks don't have mates...do they?

      "The blind white rut, the circling, the joining that leaves the joined forever scarred...yes, these are very good in their time. {...} But what would I do with a mate, Sprat? Sooner or later, one would be distressed and the other would end it."
      And... I have to mention it, even though I do not want to get into another confusing conversation about timeline... but... woah. Kit is twelve in this book. Nita's thirteen! Mrs. Callahan going on and on about "other things" is definitely too much, especially for the book being published in 1985.
      Uh-oh. You're going to get Trialia and me started again on that. See the thread on "If you could change one thing in the series..."
      We have a very long discussion on that subject. I'm on your side, Wolf, but Trialia's not. I think there's also a thread called "Nita's mom always thinks the worst".

      Comment


      • #4
        My reasoning was that he was not helping S'reee when she was injured, and he said, "A wizard!" like he was surprised and ran off right after Nita said hello. Why would he do those things if he was a wizard himself? Odd..
        Hmm... forgot about that part. O_o Maybe he didn't know how? Or couldn't --I know! How about this? Since S'reee was beached, and not in the water, and he himself being a dolphin and not able to beach, would not be able to help S'reee? (Cuz I'm pretty sure the spell needed direct contact)

        But I thought that he WAS the original Master-Shark
        See, I thought that too when I read the books previously, but then when I read that line again today, there was something about it that made it seem like he missed his chance to have the honor, but didn't take it. As for the love/unloved part... strictly speculation on my part. I don't know about the whole sharks-and-mates thing, but to me, Ed sounded almost wistful about mating. Something like, he had the chance, but couldn't -or wouldn't- take it. And the reason I thought his mate / potential mate could've been a wizard was because of the way he acted about wizards... especially the whole deal with Timeheart.

        Uh-oh. You're going to get Trialia and me started again on that. See the thread on "If you could change one thing in the series..."
        We have a very long discussion on that subject. I'm on your side, Wolf, but Trialia's not. I think there's also a thread called "Nita's mom always thinks the worst".
        I knowwww I know I knoww......... but I had to say it. I've seen both the thread, might've posted a bit in both of them, but I figured we could use the ages for reference. By the way.... totally agree with the emoticon you used. Beating a dead horse, indeed. (Although am I the only one who thinks that looks like a cow? Or is that the joke... )
        ..................~*Wolf*~..................
        AIM: CeliaWells8 / Twitter: Scifi_Nerd
        Won 2nd Place for Topic Of The Week 04, January, 2010!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          I always thought of Hotshot as a wizard, but as was suggested, I thought he needed Nita and Kit because S'reee was on land.

          I will keep a look out for anything that pops out at me about it, but in previous readings it seemed as if Ed was not the Master Shark, but to the wizards it seemed as if he could have been (maybe not quite old enough, but almost).

          And I'm with you guys, that 12 and 13 seems a little young for her mom to be thinking along those lines. But I do understand that everyone is different and some people would be ready at that age. However, it never seemed so much an age thing to me, as a question of their level of maturity and responsibility. It just didn't seem like something that they would venture into lightly and even if they were "ready", their friendship and wizardry would come first.
          Kit and Nita are mature enough to become intimate, but they are also too mature to do so at their age. Does that make sense?
          Plus, her mom really should know her daughter better. I mean, come on! It's Neets!

          Comment


          • #6
            haha. Yeah, basically all the points I attempted to make in my post that sparked off (or at least revitalized the whole discussion). I didn't get the 'maturity' factor, though- good call!

            Okay, so who is reminded of Percy Blythe Shelly's verses and John Donne when reading the Song? It has that same lush quality and poignant-yet-simple feel.

            ...Sorry, maybe I've been saturated by my Lit. classes a bit too much. Or else I love the Song too much- I had part of it for my siggy for a while. "Not old enough to love as yet/but old enough to die indeed" *shiver* It's so...beautiful.

            Okay, going off on a tangent, how do you guys think the "!" in the cetacean names should be pronouced? For example: Th!h!ki. I always said "Thuh-huh-ki", but that doesn't seem quite right..maybe more like a glottal stop? (Gah, keyboards aren't expressive enough...) But S'reee turns Kit's name into K!t, so maybe it's more of a long I sound?

            Comment


            • #7
              I think the exclamation mark is supposed to stand for a click-of-the-tongue or a whistle of some sort. The clicking works; Kit's name has the short "ih" sound that can sometimes sound close to a click. Try clicking your tongue on different parts of your mouth, then, um, slipping it when you do it. There's a lot of different sounds, and the squeal-ly/sliding/rolling sound (gah, this is hard to communicate) also affect the click. Or you can listen to dolphin recordings... Or watch the clicks in the bushmen's language in The Gods Must Be Crazy, for a look at what the whale's language might be in the human mouth. (Highly recommended. Go watch it.)
              I'm not sure about the whistling, but since Nita's name is the more likely to be whistled, I think the sound is denoted by the number of "e"s and "i"s in the name.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hotshot is definitely a wizard. I actually caught this part during this reading since I was looking for it.

                Page103-104
                S'Reee just commented on how Hotshot was such a show off, and the whalesark asserted some dominance over Kit by supplying him with the information that most dolphins are.
                "True enough. He's worse than some though. No question that he's one of the best of the young wizards, and a talented singer."
                Also, while I feel that Nita should have read everything that the Manual had on the Song of Twelve and her part in it, I think that S'reee should have made sure that Nita understood the Silent One's part before administering the oath to her. And Peach, with her cryptic warning, which was given to Nita after she has said she would be the Silent Lord (albeit before she took the oath). It almost seems as if the Powers wanted Nita to go into this not knowing what she was getting into.
                That is something that has always bothered me.
                I don't want to blame either S'reee or Nita, but both of them definitely learned from this and would not make this kind of mistake again. Because I do see it as their mistakes. Nita should have read better, and S'reee, while the "younger" and less experienced wizard, was the superior and should have known better.
                But the Powers had a reason as we all know, and it does work out, so it is not as bad as it could have been.
                Last edited by illiriam; January 31, 2010, 08:04:36 PM. Reason: Typo

                Comment


                • #9
                  It almost seems as if the Powers wanted Nita to go into this not knowing what she was getting into.
                  In a way, Nita already did that to herself - her role in the Song was supposed to be the fulfilment for the blank cheque spell she performs at the end of SYWTBAW. I've always thought that - and I agree it's a little, um, worrying - but that that was why Nita shows up there, and why S'reee is so eager to ask Nita to play the Silent One - and in fact, Nita volunteers, doesn't she, quite recklessly - but it's because she has that blank cheque that she has to pay for, so she gets pushed into a situation where she's going to be able to pay. Taking the part of the Silent One is a formality tied to the inevitability of Nita's giving life-price for that moebius spell.
                  Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah, but it just bothers me how she goes into it blind. Yes she volunteers, but I still feel that S'reee should have checked and been like, "You know you will sacrifice yourself in the fulfillment of the spell, right?... Okay, just checking." Something like that.
                    And I am not saying that She didn't get herself into it... she cast the blank-check spell and she went into it without finishing her reading. I just think that she should have been made aware of the sacrifice she was preparing to make before she agreed. After all, Kit cast the spell right with her (although if anyone noticed, he was ready to do it by himself, and she insisted on helping), so it only seems fair that the Powers make sure she goes in with both eyes open.

                    To be fair to Nita, she deals with it all quite well, better than Kit, I think. She comes to accept that this is what she needs to do since she entered into it willingly. Kit is a little more rattled by her paying the life price, and I see this as maybe being some guilt on his part, since she didn't do the blank check spell alone.
                    Even Carl admits that he doesn't know if he would be able to make the Silent Lord's sacrifice willingly, and so the fact that Nita doesn't run wildly in the other direction is incredibly impressive to me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But Nita isn't the only one who would be paying the price for the blank cheque. Yes, she would have paid the life price, but then she would have been in Timeheart. The price in guilt and heartache Kit would have paid would have been pretty steep, too. Throughout the books, it seems to me that emotional cost is shown to be as high or higher than physical cost. Each time someone gives their life so K&N can do what they need to do, that takes a piece of them, despite what the LP keeps saying about their 'lucky breaks'.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ah! I see a light! Maybe the 'higher price' that's been bugging nearly everyone here is an emotional one: your emotions are drained? That sounds...odd.

                        Anyway, thanks for the idea, Space Cadet: it always bothered me that Kit didn't have any price to pay for the Moebius spell. And yes, I know there are supposed to be two little dots over the 'e', but I can't figure out how to do that.

                        So, higher price: maybe your memories are taken away?

                        Oh! Wait! Remember when Fred said about what the LP did to stars: "Or you fall through to a naked singularity where you burn forever but don't learn anything from it," ?
                        Possibly the higher price is something like that: going to some space where you can't die, can't learn, can't get out? It sounds awful- worse than death, certainly.

                        But if you could take a fragment of the LP with you, and put it out of commision, forever- then that would be an even higher price to pay than life-price, and be valuble enough to warrant it in some extreme case. Darryl was willing to do it, in an oblique way.

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                        • #13
                          Actually, I believe HotShot IS a wizard!!
                          (True,) the white hole said. (my name is Khairelikoblepharehglukumeilichephreidosd'enagooun i--) and at the same time he went flickering through a pattern of colors that was evidently the visual translation."Ky--elik" Nita began. "Fred," Kit said quickly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well

                            Ed said he didn't have a mate but if he did then sooner than later on would fall under distress and the other would end it and vise versa

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I like that train of thought Space Cadet. I think that there was some discussion along these lines in the Higher Price thread. I believe there were a few others and myself who suggested that the higher price is having someone else take your place, pay your life price. Because then you are left to live with that knowledge and guilt and pain. But if they did it willingly, then you also are left with some major evidence that they care, in some way. To me, that seems to be the higher price, possibly the highest. You can't miss the memories you don't have anymore (although Carl spoke of that emptiness in your soul, the one that most people have throughout their lives... which would be a way of missing what you can't remember) and also if you die, then you go to Timeheart. Which the loss of your life is severe, but you go on. Having to live knowing someone took the life price you were supposed to pay... it just seems like a really high price all around.


                              One thing I picked up on during this reading was the Power Kit and Nita spoke to. I read through that part every time I read the book, but I am not sure that I ever actually realized that they spoke to a Power when they swam into Timeheart.

                              And again, Nita impresses me. The way that she is willing to enact the Sacrifice, even without her wizardry and not knowing if it would work, speaks so much about her character. The LP's comments about their "lucky breaks" bothers me, because Nita at least (and Kit too, I am sure), would be willing to give up her life (his life, in Kit's case) to save others. She was willing to die so that Kit might be able to reach the surface. It's not like they look for people to take the fall for them. And they suffer each time, and feel the pain of each loss.

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