"There's no higher payment that can be made."

[jen26]

I agree with A Moonlighting X-File but for a diff reason: Anything a person fears more than death is the 'highest payment'. (Example: I fear the deaths of my family members more than my own death.) Doesn't that make sense?

Jen26

[PK]

Welcome, Senri! (From another newbie, but oh well.) Cool, somebody else is reviving old topics....

I think everyone who's said that working for the Lone Power wouldn't make sense as a price is right -- that's hardly something that would give the energy for a major spellworking back to the universe or the Powers.

Pouring in everything of yourself.... interesting. I'm a bit inclined to balk at the idea of any price going so far as to destroy the wizard completely -- but then, that could be a logical extension of a system where a wizardry important enough and big enough can be paid for with time off your life -- up to all of your life. (Which makes more sense than it first looks like, I think -- at least, the idea of yielding to death sooner gave me pause. But even aside from the assumption of an intrinsic power in sacrifice and/or the fact that you'd no longer be using up energy, in a system where entropy's constantly increasing there are, according to physics, always tradeoffs -- you can reduce it in one place by raising it in another, and balance it with energy... and I'd be making more sense if I had reviewed thermodynamics more recently and it weren't almost midnight, I hope. But at any rate, the wizard is accelerating her own death in exchange for delaying the universe's....)

On the other hand -- "What's loved, survives." I'm not sure if it'd be possible or helpful to get rid of the effects of people loving you, and that might be the only way to get rid of yourself completely.

I did think, initially, that the higher price might possibly be to use up all the energy you could *ever* have had for wizardry, and thus not be able to do it any more -- without actually losing it in the sense of having it withdrawn and losing all memory, and so on, maybe not even losing the Speech. You'd still, perhaps, be able to fight entropy by more common methods -- conserving energy, easing pain, talking to people -- just not do the magic. But it'd be easy to argue that that's not "higher," and as several people have pointed out, if the Powers are still investing energy in other people and counting it worthwhile, it doesn't seem that this would make sense. Then again... time doesn't work quite the same for them.... *frowns and tries to figure out how that would affect it*

Losing someone you loved would be a high price indeed, but there are two problems -- while it might be harder, it doesn't seem as if it would pay back any more energy, and it does seem that if you've essentially borrowed energy that requires a life-payback, you'd be expected to pay it back yourself unless someone else actually volunteered.

So what would be very high cost for the wizard, higher than dying and something a Senior doesn't want to talk about, but ultimately productive as far as the Powers and universe are concerned....

...I wonder if it could be something like what Ronan did with taking the sea in? Well, that isn't the best example -- this would be much more extreme, for one thing.... Not ceasing to exist, but binding yourself to exist in a way you weren't made for, becoming the spell you're paying for? This might be a variation on pouring your whole existence into it, actually. I don't know if it would work, or help, but it would probably seem very dramatic to those outside it and might be harder than just dying. You'd be stuck there at least as long as the spell had to work, for one thing. Possibly in combat with the Lone One, depending on what kind of spell it was -- a binding, or something? -- it seems like direct attack would be one of the few things that might require that much energy. (Then again, I would have guessed that stopping the universe from expanding would cost more than the Mobius spell! But no, that one was shared among a thousand plus young wizards, so perhaps that made it more affordable.) In that sense it might be a bit like... staying locked with the Lone One for a long time to keep part of It out of trouble -- but perhaps until 'you' ran out, or the end of the worlds, whichever came first.

Just speculating.

Edited to add: Alan reminded me of this -- given that wizards' power diminishes with age, fluctuates with hormones, and can be augmented by trading time off their lives, it might help to look at this in light of the idea that apparently it's the wizards providing the power from their own... being, in general. (It'd be possible that everyone has such energy and most simply don't use it because they intrinsically lack some tools or aren't offered/don't choose the rest of them.) A life-price spell is cashing in all of your life at once; if it's on a delay, the Powers essentially lend the energy. It's not that they stop giving it to you; it's that you always had a certain potential maximum amount to use, and you used it all.

In that case, it actually could make sense to use up all of your wizardry present and future, at once, for one big thing -- and then not be given more, because it did come from you, after all. And it might be that this could be regarded as a higher payment from the wizard's side of things, especially if you do forget, even if it might technically involve less energy since you still keep enough to live. (If you remain the sort of person who would have been a wizard afterward, maybe your still being alive and trying to help things would work....)

Though that wouldn't explain why Carl didn't want to talk about it, unless that it's too emotional to discuss someone who did do that voluntarily as opposed to the dangers of hypothetically losing it involuntarily for oathbreaking.

[This message was edited by PK on 23 July 2003 at 22:38.]

[Senri]

Well. Um. It seems like, if the highest price was to have to work for the Lone Power or some such, that would kind of defeat the point of making the sacrifice in the first place. After all, the very point of going through with such a thing would be to prevent evil from happening; however, if you were forced to work for the Lone Power, it seems like that would spread darkness and such. Does that make any sense? But anyhow, I always thought it might be something like pouring all of the energy and power that constituted your physical and mental existence into paying the price you had to pay; erasing yourself from existence, as it were, and using the energy that made up yourself to pay for the problem. The only thing left of you would be the memories other people had of you (if even that? Such a thing would be very cruel to those left behind.). So, um, yeah. Maybe it'll be brought up again. Probably. Oh, by the way, hi!

There are three kinds of people in the world: those who see the glass as half full, those who see the glass as half empty, and those who will spit in the half-full glass to fill it all the way up.

[Polly6]

Or he could have been refering to the role kit would have to play it was nita's sacrifice that would be the repayment but kit had the harder part to play



*Wooosh I be polydactial yo!*

[Rowen Avalon]

Good good idea for a nice fanfic, if nothing else. I'm still not sure how this would save more energy than lifeprice. Care to elucidate?

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

[A Moonlighting X-Phile]

I always thought the 'higher payment' was losing someone you loved. Not like losing a sister or a friend, but someone you're *in love* with. And the reason:

his face shut as if a door had closed behind his eyes."

is because Carl's lost someone like that.

I could be wrong...

AML,
A Moonlighting X-Phile
<If all good things must come to an end - than numbers are not our friend!>
<WARNING: I cannot be help responsible for the above, as apparently my cats have learned how to type.>
<'Men will fight bravely and be heroes, but for a last ditch defense against any odds, get a mother.' You should recognize that one!>

[Rowen Avalon]

No, I doubt it's becoming a power. I think it would take a ton of energy to change a normal human being who lives in linear time into an immortal power outside of time. So again a major loss of energy.

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

Considering the fact that it would have to be a repayment of power, it could be that you become a power. Like in A Wizard Abroad, when Biddy has to "die", maybe it's something like that. Whatever it is, I sure hope that something comes up about it in future books. That quote has been killing me since I started reading the series.

[Polly6]

Every one seems to be thinking about it as a punishment and thats not what it would be its supposed to be a repayment of energy.



*Wooosh I be polydactial yo!*

[Rowen Avalon]

[again, sorry about lack of caps. my shift key is broken]

i had always assumed that the price higher than death would be loss of wizardry, the price nita almost pays in delimma. however, i can see the logic in laadeedah3's post a ways up the page that losing wizardry would be a loss of energy, not a gain. so that's ruled out.

along with everyone else, i'd like to remind people that this is a payment, not a punishment. having a friend die isn't really a payment, though i am not sure of the energy consequences of losing one's place in timeheart . . . .

wow, this is an eye opening discussion.

Yours till the bed spreads,
Rowen Avalon
mysites/ravensiggys/constitutionality

hm... I've deleted about a hundred sentences here, 'cause as soon as I finish a thought, I realize the fault in my logic...

I have *no idea* what's higher than lifeprice, and we'll just have to wait for the mysterious DD to reveal it to us... or not... :P

[Caitlin]

i agree with mad king soup. losing your wizardry would be hard enough-you'd have to restart your life with people already having ideas about you. but at least you wouldn't remember the wizardry. losing all your power, but not forgetting-you'd remember the wizardry, but no be able to do anything. and you'd have to live with the knowledge that you could help peoples-but can't, and the universe is dying faster, all because of you, so no pressure.

If one is a TRUE book lover, one cannot have a favorite book...it would be an insult to all the many books that one has read and loved.

[Sandrilyssa]

I have to disagree with all of you. I don't see how can be any of the things you are discussing considering that we are not talking about a punishment but a repayment of power. I do believe Carl would hesitate to talk about a loss of wizardry or loss of your place in Timeheart. Those seem a little to commonplace although they are considerably harsh. I'm open to any other ideas because beyond what I've said here I'm clueless.

Sandrilyssa

The problem with the idea that it's seeing someone else give up their life to save you is that they had already paid that price before (Fred, the Lotus) and have since (Ed, Peach). The Lone Power has started taunting Nita about it every time they meet in recent books, but I don't think that it's quite the same price as being asked by the universe to repay with your own life.

I'm more of the opinion that it's either losing your wizardry but remembering everything, or dying and not getting to Timeheart.

[Agent M]

Yeah your description of some one having to sacrifice themselves for another and you not being able to do anything about is right but your second one doesnt make any sense because if they HAVE to die and no one can do anything about it then its impossible because in the end Nita doesnt die.
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