Group Reading

[SilveredBlue]

Uhm. We are waaaay off on the group reading. In fact, we should be discussing WH today. We can just stop if you guys like, but if you want to keep going, then I thought we could combine discussion of WD and AWAl and do WH on the 23rd or 24th and W@W on the 30th. Sound good?

Okay, so, here's my stab at discussion.


In WD, it struck me that what Nita and Kit are doing seperately- Nita training with the kernels, and Kit making universes with his dog- are very much alike. Both give huge, powerful results without a subsequent 'crash' (although finding the kernel takes work) and both allow a person to do what they want with the world- or universe. Just something interesting.

And as for the glede: I looked up the definition and found something else interesting.
1) Any of several birds of prey, including a kite. (from the old english) 2)A live coal, an ember.

The latter definition was coined by Tolkien in the Lord of the Rings. Intriguing, no?

I think that changing your universe, having that sort of power and joy, is one of the yearnings that manifests in almost everyone. Like flying without any contrivances to help you.

Okay, and now for AWAl:
I was in the shower yesterday (that wat'ry, steaming muse! ) and had an interesting thought: what if the statues in Darryl's palace represented the LP somewhat, too? Everyone turning away, no matter what species, and nothing but fears and cold basilisks flapping in the shadows...that would freak It out.

that's all for now folks...

[SpacePen]

glede

What? in The Lord of the Rings? when? where? I MUST know, and haven't the time to re-read them all this instant.

[dorotheia]

I like the fact that Kit and Nita take parallel paths, growing up apart, before they come back together. It's satisfying. (I wonder what Kit will do now that Ponch is gone, though; Kit couldn't do it himself, and though the lessons Nita learned have and probably willexist without them... I'm not explaining this well, but I think you're right.

Except, of course, there's that thing with Darryl and looking into people's eyes. I thought that was the reason for most of the weirdness of architecture; Kit did too.

Maybe the LP made its personal hell Darryl's? *Wildly speculating* Wait, that should be the other way around...

[SilveredBlue]

What? in The Lord of the Rings? when? where? I MUST know, and haven't the time to re-read them all this instant.

[illiriam]

Okay, so I am a little behind. I've not really been participating for a week or two.
I too like how Nita and Kit work on their own "projects' for a while, but in the end, their projects really come together. So if you think about it, were they ever really separated to begin with?

I'm just gonna skip right ahead to AWAl, and my moment of "aha!" that I had at 6 am while I was reading.
On pg 215 (hardcover edition) in the chapter entitled Complications, Kit accidentally dreamwalked into one of Darryl's mind-universes, and Ponch followed him. As Darryl is telling him to leave-

"Go," Darryl said. "Go. It needs to -"
And Kit saw Darryl catch sight of Ponch.
Darryl froze. ...
It was a speculative look on Ponch's part. He was no more sure what Darryl was reacting to than Kit was.
"You," Darryl said. "You have to go."
Up in the trees, the screaming was scaling up again.
"Go on," Darryl said - not to Kit, now, but to Ponch. "Don't wait. I recognize you - what you're becoming."

Sorry for the longish quote. But somehow I never noticed this little clip of foreshadowing during previous read throughs.

And I kind of feel like we get some really confusing lines concerning the Speech in these two books. Both that you can't lie in the Speech, or that it is unwise to do so, or that you can, but be prepared for consequences. Then there is the Enactive Recension, and changing your environment if you misspeak, and in AWD, Kit not wanting to even erase Nita's written name in the Speech for fear of altering it. It's a lot of information of the Speech, but it is hard to figure out what it all means.

One other thing that I want to comment on it Carl's line to Nita about whether her mom or dad know any good electricians and his face after he realizes what he said. I think that this was a good addition to the story, because that kind of thing happens all the time. I always have friends making "Your mom" jokes to me, and then I see their look of horror, like I'm gonna attack them or run screaming tearing my hear out because they reminded me of her (or rather made a really really inappropriate joke and brought her into it). As a society we have a hard time dealing with pain, and the grieving process, but we have an even harder time afterward, because we don't really know how to treat the people around us. Subjects become taboo, deceased relative included, and breaching that taboo is cause for a moment, at least, of social panic.
Oh gosh guys, sorry, I slipped into school-online-discussion mode.

EDIT:
Oh, and now Nita has experienced pretty much every form of the manual we have seen so far. She has her book, she learned the song from the Sea, she got the Knowledge in Ireland, and she heard the Silence in Darryl's universe. The only one she hasn't done is learn through Spot, or Dairine's little species, absorbing the manual. I can't remember how Quelt learned spells, or if Nita eventually got to experience that as well. I guess I'll se today when I start WH!

[Birdhead]

I really enjoy Kit's bits in this book - I mean, I enjoy Nita's bits too, but more in the way I usually do, whereas I think we got to see Kit do something different this book - go through a genuine internal struggle. We hadn't had that much of Kit internally before this - still haven't, and by no means do I think that's really a problem because I love Nita's point of view. But it is refreshing in this book that Kit is the one really struggling. And I think it's interesting that you guys have talked about Kit's and Nita's journeys in this book as parallel - learning about similar things (the creation and control of universes, although Kit doesn't seem to have a lot of control over his creations once he sets them going!), growing up as individuals before coming together again. I agree that that's really satisfying, especially the latter (the end of the book is quite a little reunion considering Nita and Kit have really been separated for the better part of two books by this time.)

OTOH, their paths are also the reverse of each other in terms of their relationship to Darryl and even to their Art. Kit starts out as a wizard Tom and Carl feel is competent to act on his own (ha-ha. OK, that's mean, I don't mean that), someone who has no problem acting professionally towards his colleagues and affectionately towards his whanau, someone whose art is focussed outwards & on practical problemsolving (I mean, the first scene is Kit's Chaotic Family Life.) Nita starts out as someone whose relationship towards her Art is struggling through diffidence, a really self-improvement-focussed Art, internally directed, and her relationships with her family and friends are... difficult, to say the least. But by the end of the book their positions are reversed. This has probably been mentioned in many other discussions, but it's always been one of my favourite things about the novel, since I think it's really elegantly done. (Also, you know that passage at the end with the mirrors? Oh, yeah. This book is all about the mirroring. And, duh, it also mirrors Wizard's Dilemma. The same things happen in reverse. Even at the end: internal battle for someone's soul. But where Betty's solution was to accept the LP as part of herself, Darryl's was to accept the LP as part of himself... and then get the hell out of himself.)

Also... I gotta say... I really love Nita coming in like Princess Charming to save the gentles in distress at the end. IDK, I think because Nita is the lead character we often see other people saving her (and, to be fair, Kit too: WD is really the only book where Kit actively saves Nita, IIRC.) I mean, Nita is the lead and I heart her to tiny pieces but it's rare for us to see her as a superhero even when she actually is. It's a bit of a Crowning Moment of Awesome for me. (Warning: TV tropes link.)

Here's a theoretical question about the structure of the series: Dilemma and Alone. Should they be packaged/pushed/discussed together? I think SYWTBAW, DW, and HW form a nice coherent arc. AWAb stands alone. Dilemma and AWAl go together. Then... well, I'll wait til I know how Mars is going to shake out: it's possible that Holiday, W@W, and Mars are going to be the Trilogy of Awesome Travel Plans, but OTOH I also thought that W@W wrapped up a lot of fairly significant plot points &c. I just think that Dilemma and Alone are so closely related architecturally that to do one justice requires discussion of the other.

Then again, you could definitely make a case for AWAb, Dilemma, and AWAl being the Trilogy of Nita and Kit Being Separated; and I also know people who feel that it is only by the end of W@W that Nita and Kit have been able to resolve relationship issues generated by Ronan's presence in AWAb (and I think they've got a point: look at Nita's internal dialogue on the moon right at the start of HW.) IDK.

ETA: I should say, and I really should have said this upfront, that I've been really enjoying these discussions (though I may as well admit it: I haven't been re-reading, I just don't have time atm. I've been skimming though.) Thanks so much for keeping them going, everyone, and especially SilveredBlue.