Karma Points

[spyells]

Originally posted by kli6:
As for the FAQs in your sig--well, you saw the effect that my "constant nagging" had on Spyells.

What do you mean by that? I am subscribed to this topic so if you would like to say something smart please make sure that I'm not subscribed to the topic first.

I really don't appreciate that comment. If you're going to try to prove a point to someone then leave my name out of it. Plus there is nothing wrong with Eric's idea. I've never seen it become the problem that you've described it to become with Karma titles. I've never seen people just do worthless posts or one liners on other forums just to get their karma points up. I think it just adds a little more flair to the forum. It also will encourage more people to come onto the forum instead of it looking dead around here for weeks at a time. If you really want DD's money not to be wasted then we need to think of something to keep everyone's interest in the forum. I see it as a waste of money to pay to keep a forum up and running if people hardly come on the forum to post. Maybe it is time to think of something new. I think the Karma titles is a great idea.

Eric for what it's worth I think most of your ideas are pretty solid. Keep brainstorming!

[Kathy Li]

Originally posted by spyells:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kli6:
As for the FAQs in your sig--well, you saw the effect that my "constant nagging" had on Spyells.

What do you mean by that? </div>[quote]

WHat I meant was that constantly preaching netiquette to people can be irritating. That you were justified in being irritated and saying something about it, even if I felt that I was attacked unfairly for simply doing my job as an admin, I could see your side of it. I wasn't being "smart" or trying to take a dig at you. I was pointing out to Eric that he could possibly be irritating people the way I irritated you.

I am subscribed to this topic so if you would like to say something smart please make sure that I'm not subscribed to the topic first.

Well, since I never say anything smart, I wouldn't worry about it--and I always write everything for everybody to read, and I didn't think you could possibly take offense at something that was essentially agreeing with you. I guess I was wrong.

I really don't appreciate that comment. If you're going to try to prove a point to someone then leave my name out of it.

Well, I'd edit your name out of it, now, but then your reply would still make it pretty obvious what I'd done, so I think I'll leave it the way it is. Next time, though, if you private topic me about it, I will do the edit. Once you go public, it's gotta stand, so everybody can make their own judgement call on what's been said and what's been done and who was right or wrong and judge posts on their own terms. At least, that's my view of things. Does that seem fair to you?

Plus there is nothing wrong with Eric's idea. I've never seen it become the problem that you've described it to become with Karma titles. I've never seen people just do worthless posts or one liners on other forums just to get their karma points up.

That's fair to say. I'm just saying my experience is very different--I've actively had to delete posts and subtract from karma counts for people who have done just that (which may be why you haven't seen it).

But aside from my opinions and experiences, what DD says on this board goes. And I can actually remember her saying no to different rank titles and adding more ranks. So, aside from whether it's a good idea or not, her will prevails. If she or Lee wanted ranks and new names, either one of them would have done it by now.

If you really want DD's money not to be wasted then we need to think of something to keep everyone's interest in the forum.

Yup. But it's not my job alone--it's the job of everybody who posts here. And I'm working on an idea, it's just that DD's been to busy to reply to any of my emails, lately, and I need to get her permission first. You could probably come up with a better idea than mine, if you tried, though.

[EricG1793]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you really want DD's money not to be wasted then we need to think of something to keep everyone's interest in the forum.

Yup. But it's not my job alone--it's the job of everybody who posts here. </div>[quote]

(Stops clutching face and peeks through fingers) Err... My idea about the opening chat as a Seniority Privilege would bring more traffic, and, as spyells said, the more, and more interesting, ranks would help somewhat.

I've said this a few times before, as for wasting DD's money, I thought us as members were paying for it, via the ChipIn widgets.

And for the FAQs in my signature.... I'll do it somewhat how you're doing it, Kathy, but slightly more often. I'll let my signature show in every other or third post I make in one thread. That way it won't be too overdone.

(Closes fingers and resumes clutching face)

[Dragon Writer]

I can't get into chat one way or another, senior or not, so i have no personal stake in this...
nevertheless, just because you've been in the forum a long time doesn't mean you're more likely to follow the rules-it just makes it less excusable if you don't already know them.
And as for the karma titles themselves, i personally like them just fine the way they are. (though i would have, in the past, been a lot happier if there were steps between member and senior member, involving a bit LESS posting...maybe something questioning the sanity of the member like "boy is this person insane" titles. :P
and i'm sure people do post randomly just to increase rank...when i was really close to breaking through to senior member, i did go looking for places to post so that i could make the final ones...though i did also at least TRY to make the posts meaningful. (Possible exception being when i finally decided to ask about the icons, though i really had been wondering about those ever since i first saw them mentioned) Final point, i can see it happening...particularly if there were actual privialages related to the rank making people wish to attain it all the more.

[EricG1793]

young reader, I truly love the way you can debate things in argument, or otherwise something debatable. And in a way that I don't find naggy, offensive, arrogant, etc. You put it just the right way that I understand COMPLETELY now why it won't work.

(Turns sour again)But I'm still not giving any more suggestions! I don't want to get in to THIS routine again.

[Sean L.]

Kathy: I don't think I envy admins anymore. I used to think that being an admin would be great - help people, make sure the rules are followed, ensure the continuation of the board...Now, while I still appreciate the necessity of it, it's pretty much gone from 'what a spiffy thing to do' to 'what a chore' in my mind.

/Aside/ I wonder if there's a 'five stages of BBSing' like a 'five stages of grief' progression. Arrogance, Naivéty, Cynicism, Lurking, Patience?

---

If I may take the soapbox for a second...

Eric: The community exists because of the will of the members as well as the work of the admins. Without members, there is no community; without admins, there is chaos. Suggesting things is a good thing - as long as you have a good attitude. Realize that Kathy, Garrett, Lee, and especially DD, are admins for a reason - they have been on the internet and around in general longer than most of us have, and as such know more than we do. They've probably heard your suggestion before and heard arguments for both sides - and there's probably a good reason why the status quo is exactly that. Of course, they're not omniscient, which is why suggestions are good. New ideas may help the forums move forward - if you have one, there's no harm in at least tossing it about so people can hear and comment on it.

That being said...

The most important things when suggesting ideas, I think, are to not take it personally, and keep it rational. Now look at your own posts:

(Considers present and past situation(s)) (Gets irritated) Why is it that whenever I have decent ideas that I've put a lot of thought in to to make the Forums a better place that some other member (not just seabiscuit, but many other people) comes in extinguishes the match with a tornado**?!!

Rhi responded very nicely to this one.

They're not good and aren't valued by anyone (just about), so what point is it in wasting my time to come up with them,...

It's probably selfish to say that I'm feeling unappreciated, but maybe it's not.... You be your own private judge.

And in a way that I don't find naggy, offensive, arrogant, etc. You put it just the right way that I understand COMPLETELY now why it won't work.

(Turns sour again)But I'm still not giving any more suggestions! I don't want to get in to THIS routine again.

I'm going to be very blunt here, but because you haven't gotten any of the hints so far: You are not God's gift to the yw messageboards.

When Kathy shot your idea down, it wasn't a personal criticism on you. She had seen the idea not work - and given that she was probably lurking around the internet before most of us were born, that means something. Her response was logical, polite, and direct. You, in return, started whining about how your ideas are undervalued, you're feeling unappreciated, and (reading between the lines), you found our responses naggy, offensive, and arrogant.

No one, in any of their posts, personally criticized you. No one said that you were stupid for raising the ideas, or that you had too much time on your hands, or anything else that was a direct attack on you. And yet, your posts made it seem like we were inhuman monsters kicking a puppy. We aren't; to the best of my knowledge, none of us have ever kicked any puppies.

If people really disliked you, they would start attacking you. If they -really- hated you, they would just ignore you. The fact that people are responding intelligently and politely means that they are considering your words instead of just dismissing them. As much as you think it's terrible that people are shooting down your ideas, you shouldn't - if I may paraphrase Randy Pausch, when people stop shooting down your ideas is when they no longer care about what you say.

If we consider your ideas in general, Eric, the reason that they're being shot down is that they don't stand up to debate. As you said, while your ideas are decent, decent doesn't mean it should be implemented automatically. The members of this board aren't yes-men-and-women; we won't agree with every word that comes out of your, or anyone's, mouth(s). If you were looking for every one of your ideas to be adopted immediately, sorry, not gonna happen. But if you come up with a truly mindblowingly good idea, it will stand up to any criticism thrown at it, and it has a good chance of being adopted. As Kathy said, cleaning out private messages is a good idea. So keep posting - but stop thinking that it's all about you. It shouldn't be - it should be about the idea itself.

Good ideas will weather the barrage of criticism, bad ideas will be shot down unhesitatingly, and it doesn't matter if your ego gets caught in the crossfire, so you'd best shrink it now. I would know, I've been hit before

[Kathy Li]

Originally posted by Sean L.:
Kathy: I don't think I envy admins anymore.

Snort. Yes, everybody wants the power; nobody wants the responsibility. On boards as in life.

The most important things when suggesting ideas, I think, are to not take it personally, and keep it rational.

Oh yes. Definitely the key.

But who hasn't done the emo thing over boards or email in their time? When you throw an idea out, it is part of you. And it takes experience to figure out how to separate yourself from it. This is one of the reasons I love writers: just imagine what it must be like to write a novel and throw it out there.

But if Eric knows that not-posting suggestions is the route for him, then he's free to follow that. I really doubt he'll stop giving us suggestions altogether. But it's understandable that he'd want a breather after being shot down so many times in a row. I've done that myself, and taken breaks from boards where things got too hot and heavy for me. There's more than one game out there.

When this one makes me feel like tearing my hair out, I tend to run over to a bunch of photography boards.

[Dragon Writer]

One, thank you. *grins* Two, *is sorry to hear that* we might occasionally shoot down your oppinions, but that doesn't mean that they aren't also appreciated as an attempt to better the forum. And maybe one day you'll have one that'll work, and be of great benifit to the site! after all, if people didn't continue to have and share oppinions despite oppisition, no one would get anywhere.
Admittedly, there might have also been a lot less assasinations in history, but we wouldn't have done anything worthwile in our history, either. I won't guarantee you won't be shot down, or accused of not putting enough thought into it...but you never know, maybe you'll think of something great.

[wolf_wizard]

Hmmm, well, I liked Eric's idea at first, but then reading Spyells' post, i thought that when we sre senior, being able to chose what we want to be called would be a good idea- maybe put it under "Senior Member" or something. That way, things would be pretty much the same, but when you are senior, that one of the only (if not only) priveleges you get- and people wouldn't push their karma points a ton to get it. Not anymore than now, anyway

originally posted by Rhi:
being the strange humans/dragons/cats

What about wolves? I think that they are more important so they shouldn't just be placed under etc.!!!

So, yeah, I like Spyells idea.

[Dragon Writer]

Might be more complex, though. Senior members, currently, don't get any more privvilages then you. (At least, not that anyone's told me. And i'd be rather offput to find out that there's all these things i could be doing)
I don't think it's a good idea for there to be ANY real pushing to be a senior member...With everyone working so hard to get to it, everyone when you do tget there, it gets at least a little bit of repsect, i suppose,. amnd if you broke the rules to get it, then it undermines the purpose...
NOt that i think there was orriginally any purpose to it, other than a cool title, but still. People don't need added incentative to double post, and do one liners, and break the rules, so that newbies can come in afterwards, and think it must be ok because they saw senior members doing it.

[EricG1793]

Well, I just thought of an example....

There's one site where you can download video game music that I know of. You can "mass download" an "album" (all the music in one video game) all in one download, rather than clicking individual songs, once you get a hundred posts. What I like about those forums is that it keeps things moving. There's always something new being said and something adding to a discussion, and I love it that way.

The downside to this is that there are many "gutless" posts all over that website. There are thousands of regularly active members on that site. However, there only a dozen or so regularly active members here... it's way easier to explain one-liner rules in a community like this, where there are less members to... control, let's put it that way. So I don't think that rule-breaking would be that hard to overcome if there were "seniority privileges" on this site.

There would be more posts, it would be more busy, but it would be just the same members, making more posts. It wouldn't increase the amount of registered users per day.

And I'm not saying seniority privileges should be banning members, moving posts, etc. etc. etc. I suggested earlier that smallER things would be nice, like having the ability to open the chat room temporarily. Chances are, if you get to be a Senior and you have 1000 Karma Points, you've been around the forums for quite a while and you know how things go both in the forums and in the Chat room.

I'll change the theme slightly...:

Also at that website, they have a "Newbie Adoption Agency." Here, a member who has x amount of posts and has been here for x months can "adopt" a new member, who posts in that thread that they want to be "adopted". Being "adopted" is the same concept as what I'm doing with the newbies here: sending them an introductory PM, asking questions, explaining rules, etc. So another "seniority privilege" could be to have qualification of "adopting" a newbie who wishes to be "adopted."

I'm happy with myself. I put up a great, fair, sensible argument here, and NOOOWW I have two good, solid "seniority privileges" ideas.

[alla]

Things work differently on other websites. Here, the senior mark is 1000 Karma Points - and it is this high (and I'm sure that this has been said somewhere above) for a reason. That reason is that it is an awesome achievement to reach, especially considering the post length that we like to see here, and the relatively small discussion group that we have here (i.e. there aren't that many new ideas that crop up to be discussed, compared to say, one of the HP forums). I've been here for over three years now, and I still have not reached this target.

In my humble opinion, being able to open the chat room temporarily is a bit high for just a senior member to do. If something "goes wrong", if someone misbehaves in there, a senior member does not really have the authority to ask them to stop. That being said, those people who are doing that behavior should know that what they are doing is wrong and not be doing it in the first place, but it happened, and thats what lost the chat room to us.

As for the newbie adoption (and oh no, this is going to make it sound like I'm "shutting you down again ), technically we do that anyway. You've even said in your paragraph that you do that without us having to have another thread, and send more messages to newbies (thus increasing the traffic on the boards).

Alla

[EricG1793]

alla,

The Senior OPENS the chat room, therefore when they LEAVE the chat room, everyone else is forced out of it as well. Therefore, if there's an issue in the chat room, the Senior who opened it simply closes the chat room, and that's that in terms of more ToS violations for that time. The Senior will then notify an admin of the issue, who can then look at the chat transcript and decide the appropriate plan of action for the violation. That's simple enough, if I do say so myself.

As for the newbie adoption agency... It's quite a bit for one person to keep track of. On that site, there are half a dozen people qualified to be an adopter; a newbie requests to be adopted, and whoever wants to adopt them (usually the first person to read the reply after it's made) does so.

Also for the newbie adoption agency:

You've even said in your paragraph that you do that without us having to have another thread

I never said I'm doing this to avoid having a thread dedicated for that purpose.

Now, because I proved my points to the faults that you brought up, you'll decide to go against the idea completely.

[Tuttle]

The problem with a senior being able to open the chat room is that being a senior doesn't make them qualified for that. Having posted 1000 posts doesn't mean they understand how the internet works. It doesn't mean they understand how to deal with people. It doesn't mean they have enough knowledge and responsibility for being in charge of the chatroom for a short period of time. Because how we currently are with the mods needing to open it- its because we proved we needed someone with that responsibility. When the rooms were open before there were many times when senior members were in there and the inappropriate discussion was going on and they said nothing. There were times they were even participating. It was a problem we all took part in even if just by not doing anything. If they didn't have the responsibility when it was something they should do, then they won't in general have the responsibility because it is necessary. Partially because they won't have some of the necessary experience to handle that responsibility.


I also think giving senior members any privileges is something completely going against the point of this board. It suggests people should post more, which doesn't mean that people will post any more content. It'd lead to more one liners, more double posts, more off topic discussion that doesn't seem relevant in chatter II and somewhat more probably, but not enough more interesting discussion to make it worth it. Especially since the reason people should be posting is to have interesting discussion, not because other people are, not because they want to have privileges, not because they want to get something beyond what is directly going on. There will be outside influences yes, but it seems a good idea to minimize outside influences.

The newbie adoption agency thing does seem like its something we already do and shouldn't be determined by the number of posts. The idea of formalizing welcoming newbies seems interesting and like it could be relevant, but saying "if you post over 1000 posts you're good enough to do that" seems silly. It seems too easy for people to get post counts that don't represent how they interact with the forums. It seems like there are plenty of people with 300 posts who are completely appropriate to formally welcome others and help them out. It is something we do anyways, I agree with Alla on, but the problem I have isn't the formalization but the limiting who can help to something arbitrary. It seems like there could be problems with people not completely understanding the culture the rules and everything before wanting to help, but like that'd be a smaller problem than saying that many people who would be good at and would want to being told they couldn't.


Can you understand the problems I see with privileges as well as specifically the ones you gave as examples? The biggest problem I see is that you give responsibility to people who may not be ready and who may want to be ready so try anyways. This probably helps them grow in some cases, but it doesn't work out like the ideal situation.

I don't think I'd be ready to do anything like opening chat while I'm there, and I doubt I'd be ready when I hit 1000 posts (other than how long that seems it'll take I may have had enough experience by that point...). It's something that requires the qualities the mods have and the average person doesn't contain all of.

[alla]

Eric:

Also for the newbie adoption agency:


quote: ALLA:

You've even said in your paragraph that you do that without us having to have another thread


I never said I'm doing this to avoid having a thread dedicated for that purpose.

Now, because I proved my points to the faults that you brought up, you'll decide to go against the idea completely.

1: You misquoted me, and misinterpreted me there. The entire sentence is needed to get the full effect of what I meant. I'll phrase it a different way; Why do we need to formalise and (as Tuttle has said) restrict who can welcome newbies and who cannot? I was welcoming newbies when I had under 100 posts (ask wildflower, Tuttle, and many others who arrived around the same time as I did).

You come along and you think that all of your ideas are original, and you keep referring to this other forum (where, it seems, you get all of your ideas from). We do not want this forum to be like some other one out there. That is what is good about YW.net - we are different. I have tried time and time again to be a member of a different forum, but it all comes back to the atmosphere that we used to have here, and the fact that I do not think that there is another forum out there that can even stand knee-high to the atmosphere of friendship and accpetance (both to other people, both new and old, and to grammar and spelling rules) that we used to have here. Anyway, I got side tracked in there, but my point was going to be that you are trying to change the forums to the way that you want them to be, and get all up in arms at us when we do not want to change.

I do not know what you mean by that last line of yours, but all I can think about it is that you really do not get what I am saying. You haven't proved your points, in my opinion, and I was never for the ideas anyway, so I cannot 'Now... decide to go against the idea completely' (and that can be edited and quoted in context, becuase the whole point of that sentence is just those words).