Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Judeo-Christian connection.... ???

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Judeo-Christian connection.... ???

    I've always rather wondered about this, especially since at least three other orders/choirs (Thrones, Principalities, and Dominations, in AWA when Nita was researching abdals) were mentioned. Does anyone know if there's any correlation between the Powers that Be and the angelic order of Powers, or am I just indulging in my religious lore obsession too much?

    I am Lionfish. HEAR ME ROA-- ....um, bubble. Blub, blub. *sweatdrop*

    [This message was edited by semiramis on 04 February 2004 at 16:21.]

    [This message was edited by semiramis on 07 February 2004 at 15:54.]

    [This message was edited by semiramis on 07 February 2004 at 18:17.]

  • #2
    Colossians 1:16 says,

    "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

    I'm sure there's a correlation.
    I am on errantry and I greet you. Dai!

    Comment


    • #3
      Definitely a loose or superficial correlation of sorts to Judeo-Christian "angel-ology" (for lack of a better word!), but certainly not a strict one. The easiest (very) loosely correlated "Powers"

      The One ~ more ore less God
      Lone Power ~ more or less the (or a) Devil (or many demons?) plus the concept of "original sin" (or of the depravity of humanity) seemingly rolled into one, (except with a great many tweaks!)
      Winged Defender ~ something akin to the (or a type of the) archangel Michael

      etc......

      Abdals ~ appear to be similar to saints, and yet completely different at the same time

      From the Errantry Concordance:
      the Powers that Be are routinely mistaken for, or identified with, gods, demigods, and angelic powers of the highest orders...The Powers that Be share some characteristics with the Powers (a rendering of the Greek word exousia) of classical angelology. It would probably be a mistake to attempt to describe them simply as angels, however, as the Powers' job description seems to include operations previously attributed to more elevated orders of creation such as Virtues and Dominions.
      In any case they also exhibit loose affinity with Greek mythology, ancient Egyptian gods, and other orders from pantheistic religions. (Except in the Feline books, where a rather causal relationship is implied - that the ancient Egyptians got "mixed up" when their cats told them about the Powers - there seems to be no DIRECT relationship between a wizard's understanding of the orders and and religious thought).
      Last edited by SpacePen; February 20, 2009, 05:40:10 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Also, in addition to all stated so far:

        Christianity has a history of "borrowing" from the peoples that it took over so there are a lot of correlations between different world philosophies and religions. Christmas Day was a Druid (I think) holiday for example. A lot of symbolism was borrowed and a lot of stories were taken and the people in them changed to suit Christianity. I don't think Judaism has done any of that, but if they did, Christianity has just done more of it.
        2 Saxy 4 u 2 Handel...

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, Christianity took its holidays and mixed them with pagan ones. The winter solstice was merged with Christmas, The Spring equinox and Easter, and so on. It was to help early Christians from being persecuted and to help new converts be more comfortable by making the holidays as similar as possible.

          I think that the presence of similarities between the pantheon in the books and with our religions is mentioned. (I just tried to look up where it is discussed, but with a cursory glance I couldn't find it, anybody remember?) I believe it goes something along the lines of Nita saying that no one knows about any of this, about the Lone Power and all that, and maybe Tom or Carl replies not necessarily, there have always been stories told that cover the basics.

          And after all, most stories in our history arose from religion or the explanation of peoples that attributed phenomenon to otherworldly deities, so its only to be expected that there is some correlation between the powers and angelic beings and the Creator (by whichever name He is known).

          After thinking a little more, doesn't the angelic hierarchy and the story of creation seem like a great, and basic starting point for any story. If you need a place to start, start with creation and put a twist on it.

          This is a great thread topic. Kudos to you.

          Comment


          • #6
            It is a good topic, and i've always believed that the hierarchy of angels were one and the same with the many Gods of Greece/ Rome/ the Vikings... etc.
            2 Saxy 4 u 2 Handel...

            Comment


            • #7

              Comment


              • #8
                To me, how YW does it is extremely different than how either of those other examples do it. YW has mythological and religious influences, but it is not so direct. While YW does have things like the Winged Defender and Michael the Arch Angel, I can't imagine studying YW from a religious perspective the same way you would study Tolkien or Lewis's writing.

                Both Tolkien and Lewis's writings were clearly linked to Christianity - not simply influenced by (which is expected knowing their views on the matter). They wrote from a religious point of view. Tolkien's isn't nearly as explicit as Lewis's though. To explain my point on C.S. Lewis's writings being explicitly Christian (I actually cannot see anything except possibly parts of Narnia (and not the whole thing) which could be argued is not explicit), I picked up the first book of his on my shelf (in this case Perelandra, second book in the space trilogy) and opened to a random page, a quote from that page "'I mean,' said she, ' that in your world Maleldil first took Himself this from, the form of your race and mine'".

                The Space Trilogy's influence by Judeo-Christian, is very different, than the one in YW, if only for the part where C.S. Lewis was a person who's life led to a day of commemoration on the Anglican Calendar. However, the linking to mythologies and religion, is clearly there in YW. I like the point of
                "here's the real story, and everyone else has got slightly skewed versions of it that get the basics across, but they don't know the specifics of what wizards know".
                , because it seems the most accurate thing said so far for how I interpret it.
                Last edited by Tuttle; June 28, 2009, 09:00:22 PM.
                We will remember you PM. And your little GingerBear.

                Comment


                • #9
                  religious study?

                  Originally posted by Tuttle View Post
                  [cut] I can't imagine studying YW from a religious perspective the same way you would study Tolkien or Lewis's writing.
                  [cut]
                  No, definitely not! But I do think the angelology aspect (for lack of a better word) is very similar in all of these stories.

                  By which I mean, in Tolkien and in Lewis, there is so much MORE you could study from a religious perspective than the angel-ology....

                  And by which I also mean: Tolkien, Lewis, and Duane all clearly imply a pantheistic idea within a monotheistic framework - that is, they all write stories within the idea that there are creatures very much _like_ the pantheistic gods of ancient Greek or Roman or Norse or Egyptian or other religions - beings that are "as gods" to us humans, that are in some sense more godlike than we are. For all three authors, these beings are closer to being creators, closer to being all-knowing, closer to being all-powerful than humans. Yet, these beings, (or powers, or gods, or spirits,) themselves do acknowledge a greater authority, a "One", analogous to an ultimate Creator-God. And there is in the stories of all three authors a bad power that fights directly against the other powers and against us humans, and against the "One" (sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly).

                  Which is an important philosophical idea, because it loads the cosmic battle between good and evil - it makes it unequal, so that good is (philosophically, logically) always sure to triumph in the end. ON the other hand, in all three authors you see the "One" never seems to jump in and do things without asking us all to participate in the fight.
                  Last edited by SpacePen; June 30, 2009, 05:26:26 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    lewis non-explicit

                    Oh, BTW to Tuttle, I can't see Lewis's Narnia stories as anything besides Christian - once you equate Aslan with Jesus there's no separating it out, because you know Lewis was writing every Aslan scene with the idea of Jesus's character in his head.

                    There are two Lewis stores I do see as not explicitly Christian. The first is a short sci-fi story about people landing on the moon (he wrote it before we actually went to the moon, I think) and the second is the novel "Till We Have Faces" (which may not be explicitly Christian but its philosophical concepts are quite within a Christian framework).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SpacePen View Post
                      Which is an important philosophical idea, because it loads the cosmic battle between good and evil - it makes it unequal, so that good is (philosophically, logically) always sure to triumph in the end.
                      Well, I'm not convinced that that is true (and it also doesn't jibe with Christianity for most of its history, although for good Presbyterian atheists like me that's sometimes hard to remember). One adult can beat up a dozen toddlers with reasonable ease (ow, bad example.) However there is no particular logical thought that one is always defeated by the many unless there is a specification of the relative power levels. I mean, the LP can always just roll a lot of D20s, you know?

                      I do understand what I mean, but I'm just not sure that you're using the word "philosophical" or "logical" correctly. This pantheistic system certainly appears to load the dice against your average manifestation of evil but it really depends on the power you accredit to the various deities.
                      Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SpacePen View Post
                        Oh, BTW to Tuttle, I can't see Lewis's Narnia stories as anything besides Christian - once you equate Aslan with Jesus there's no separating it out, because you know Lewis was writing every Aslan scene with the idea of Jesus's character in his head.
                        Except that Lewis explicitly denied that he wrote the Narnia books as a Christian allegory. I mean the man was an adult convert and has the peculiar intense religious feeling associated with being an adult convert so of course that is in his writing, but Aslan is not Jesus. Sometimes a lion deity is just a lion deity.
                        Go ahead! Panic! Do it now and avoid the June rush! Fear death by water!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Birdhead View Post
                          Except that Lewis explicitly denied that he wrote the Narnia books as a Christian allegory. I mean the man was an adult convert and has the peculiar intense religious feeling associated with being an adult convert so of course that is in his writing, but Aslan is not Jesus. Sometimes a lion deity is just a lion deity.
                          He denied it being allegory, not it not being explicitly Christian, there's a difference. While sometimes a lion deity is just a lion deity, this is a case it is not. He is not an allegorical figure, but he is more than a lion deity. On Aslan, Lewis wrote
                          Originally posted by (Martindale, Wayne; Root, Jerry. The Quotable Lewis.)
                          If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair [a character in The Pilgrim's Progress] represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality, however, he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia, and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all.
                          Also an interesting quote on Narnia in terms of Christianity, which according to wikipedia is in Of Other Worlds, This does seem to be saying that, while it isn't allegory, it is Christian, because that became part.

                          Looking back at Aslan as Jesus, in terms of explicitness, we can look in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader pages 215 and 216,
                          "Dearest," said Aslan very gently, "you and your brother will never come back to Narnia."

                          "Oh, Aslan!" said Edmund and Lucy both together in despairing voices.

                          "You are too old, children," said Aslan, "and you must begin to come close to your own world now." "It isn't Narnia, you know," sobbed Lucy. "It's you. We shan't meet you there. And how can we live, never meeting you?"

                          "But you shall meet me, dear one," said Aslan. "Are--are you there too, Sir?" said Edmund.

                          I am," said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there."
                          So yes, Narnia is not allegory, because it was not written to teach in that manner, but this does not mean that Aslan is not Jesus. They are not written as allegory, but they are written such that their universe incorporate truth of the Christian faith, such that events do mirror events in the Christian belief.


                          --
                          ...So, if we continue talking about this we might want this split off into a different thread, or change the focus from Juedo-Christianity in YW to in books in general. If this thread should be YW specific then it might should split into YW, and in other books.
                          Last edited by Tuttle; July 1, 2009, 06:58:08 PM. Reason: Citations ;)
                          We will remember you PM. And your little GingerBear.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tuttle View Post
                            So yes, Narnia is not allegory, because it was not written to teach in that manner, but this does not mean that Aslan is not Jesus. They are not written as allegory, but they are written such that their universe incorporate truth of the Christian faith, such that events do mirror events in the Christian belief.


                            --
                            ...So, if we continue talking about this we might want this split off into a different thread, or change the focus from Juedo-Christianity in YW to in books in general. If this thread should be YW specific then it might should split into YW, and in other books.
                            I think it would be safe to say, that if you are a writer who is religious, odds are that your values and perhaps some of the stories of your faith will come through in what you write. Even if you don't mean it to teach your faith. You have to admit, the bible has some great story lines. Madeleine L'Engle used the story of Noah (slightly altered) with names and everything in her 4th book of the Wrinkle in Time series.
                            2 Saxy 4 u 2 Handel...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              the One

                              Birdhead, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said that the odds are loaded in favor of "the good side". It had nothing at all to do with the number of Powers who are on the good side. It had everything to do with "the One". Whichever side The One is on, that's the winning side - even if everyone else joins the unredeemed Lone Power.

                              The important philosophical idea I was referring to is the Judeo-Christian idea that the bad power and the good power are not peers. You could imagine a series of books in which they were peers, in which there was both a good power and a bad power, eternally locked in combat, neither one ultimately able to best the other. If this were true of the YW universe, I would expect to find both a good version of The One and a bad version of The One. (in which case they might be called "The Two").

                              Instead I find in the YW universe, as with Tolkien's and Lewis', that The One is of the highest order of Being and that The One is good. The bad power is of a lesser order than The One. While the bad power is (pantheistically) pitted in battle against the other powers of its same order, and is in fact of a "higher" order than humans, it is not ultimately destined to "win". Why? Because The One, while sometimes seeming distant, is actually very invested in what's going on, and lends support to the good side.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X