The Speech and Lying

[Priellan]

While DD has made a much better effort than most authors do to explain how lying in the Speech works, I still don't understand exactly how the whole lying idea works. I know that wizards avoid lying, but what exactly does it mean when wizards "cannot" lie?

The ways I can see of taking it are these:
a) You can lie in the Speech, and people say you "can't" as an exaggeration because lying has bad effects in some way, shape, or form.
b) You can lie in the Speech, but due to its properties, it instead changes the world so that your lie becomes truth - you are telling the truth, technically, but you are altering reality to do so.
c) You literally cannot lie in the Speech - either magic somehow stops the lie from being spoken, or the words somehow lose their inherent value while the lie is being spoken.

I suspect that my second answer there is the correct one, but I'm still not entirely sure on this. Thanks to the author for trying to clarify within the books, as few authors choose to do so; now, can anyone else help me further?

[illiriam]

My take on it

I think that is may be a bit of both b and c. Naming something, which is what the Speech does, gives you power over it, and can cause change. I guess like if Nita were to be naming Kit and she made a mistake, that mistake would become a part of him. Which is why they check the spells constantly. But a mistake is different than a lie, because it is not done on purpose, and they wouldn't realize their mistake. (Using a spell to change something I also see as different, because that it the purpose of it...)
But in Wizard's Holiday, they were trying to explain to Quelt about the issue in her world, and they said that they can't in the Speech. Like, if they know that what they are saying is false, they cannot actually say it.

AWH, pg 351.

"Why should she believe any of this?" Kit said under his breath...
"Because we're wizards," Nita said, "and we wouldn't lie to her. We can't, in the Speech! And she knows that."

AWH, pg 358.

Kit looked at her in shock. "Why would we lie?"
"Because when you're not using the Speech, you can?" Quelt said.

So I see it as if they know that they are saying a falsehood, then they physically cannot make the words come out of their mouth. I could be wrong though.

[Priellan]

Thank you for the topic nominations! =) I didn't realize people would find this to be that interesting.

illiriam, that makes sense to me. It would be pretty awkward, though, if people knew you were attempting to lie because you just stopped talking. Maybe the Powers don't have an idea of awkwardness. Or they do and just don't like it when people abuse their creations and let the awkwardness ensuing teach you not to lie.

How would the Lone Power be able to trick people into making Choices in his/her/its favor, then? From what I've seen, it appears that he/she/it phrases things to sound true, or will omit truths to get someone to accept what he/she/it says; so what counts as a lie in the Speech if the Speech does indeed alter reality to make what someone says in it true?

And what would happen if, say, Carmela tried to lie in the Speech? Would it have the same effect as it would for S'reee or Ronan even though she's not a wizard?

[SilveredBlue]

I'm going to try to answer the questions somewhat:

1. In SYWTBAW, I think, there was a blurb about how you could lie in English, but then your wizardry would start to go wrong. The Speech is all about describing things accurately, so if you deliberately say the opposite in your own language, the effect carries over to the Speech.

2. However, if you leave out things, nothing happens. In AWAb, Nita promises not to "pop over to see Kit", and yet they see each other because Kit can go to see her. Thus, she obeyed the letter of her promise, but not the spirit of it. Which explains why the LP can destroy Choices in the Speech. Also, as the inventor of the lie and a hater of wizardry, I doubt the LP wouldn't worry about spells going wrong around him. In fact, he'd positively enjoy it.

3. The basis is that the lie aids entropy, and so is inimical to Life, which destroys spells. I think that Carmela, though, since she doesn't work spells and isn't sworn to Life, could lie in English (or Spanish, or Japenese, whatever) and get away with it.

4. I'm guessing that only accidental mis-speaking, combined with the right intent, would alter reality. Remember, if someone believes something to be true, then they can say it in the Speech even if it is not. (Quelt said something along those lines in WH.) If he/she then used that mis-speaking in a spell, then reality would conform to fit or the spell would backfire.

In W@W, remember, the problem with the expansion was that things moved to fast to describe, undermining spells because it made the expression of where something was into a lie. Younger wizards could get around this because their intention combined with the power boost forced the spells to work even without the accurate description.

Wow, that was long.

[Wolf]

All I can really say is that I ditto the two previous answers.

Wasn't it when they were trying to help Nita's mom, they had to be really careful, because with all that was going on with her, things were constantly changing?

And hmmm. Carmela and the speech is a topic I started that's getting much debate by itself... but I think we'd come to the conclusion that since Carmela doesn't have the means to change anything (due to the fact she doesn't have wizardry), then if she lied in the Speech it wouldn't change anything. Also, like Quelt, she as well could think that was she was saying was true even though it could be inaccurate, since she doesn't quite understand wizardry yet. So, even though I don't think it's A at all, maybe with Carmela it would be? I could just imagine her trying to talk to Kit in the Speech, and not being able to talk- or have Kit goad her into a promise by making her say it in the Speech!

SilveredBlue:

In W@W, remember, the problem with the expansion was that things moved to fast to describe, undermining spells because it made the expression of where something was into a lie. Younger wizards could get around this because their intention combined with the power boost forced the spells to work even without the accurate description.

I'll have to read that again, cuz the whole "pushing things to work" really seems... (please excuse the terrible, non-intended pun) to be pushing it. Almost like DD needed an idea to help them crawl out of the situation, but I think I just don't remember that scene well enough, and I have a love/hate relationship with W@W because of what happens with Ponchy.

[96bookworms]

I doubt this would work, and it's sorta off topic, but if saying a name wrong will change something, then, when Nita's mom was sick, couldn't they just say her name without the cancer in it and it would change? I'm probably wrong, but it's just an idea.....

[Wolf]

I see what you mean, and I agree, but I think the whole thing was just too darn complicated. Remember when Kit wanted to go in and talk the cancer out of itself? I think if you describe someone wrong, it affects a little bit of them, or just kills the spell, since the information is wrong.

[SilveredBlue]

Okay, I just re-read my own post and yours, Wolfie, and I realized I was wrong about the "forcing it to work" after a peek at W@W. The Speech was still working on W@W, and spells too, but it was starting to go bad because of the expansion.

"When you do a spell," said Tom, "you have to accurately describe what you're working on in the Speech, or else you risk destroying it. And to accurately describe anything, you have to know, and describe, not only what it is, but where it is...But if all of a sudden, because of this expansion, things are moving unpredictably in directions or speeds they shouldn't be-"
"Then your wizardry doesn't work at all," Kit said. "Or starts to, and then breaks down."

W@W (paperback) pg 35

The younger wizards kept the Speech because their levels were above a certain point, but the older ones lost it because they stopped believing they could- and "Power does not live in an unwilling heart." I'd type it out, but I'm too lazy. Look on pg. 35-36 of the paperback, the fat short stubby one, to find the quote.

But it was a race against time, since eventually wizardry would break down altogether.

Also, I'd like to point out something interesting: Kit says that, because the description is not accurate- ie, untrue, a lie- the wizardry doesn't work, or starts to work but breaks down. He doesn't say it changes the universe to work in accordance with the faulty description. I think that particular result is confined to a wizard's name.

Oh, and the cancer: Nita wasn't allowed to kill the cancer that way, because she had taken a vow to preserve Life, and the cancer was alive. What she tried to do was change the cancer viruses' own viewpoint, to cause them to help rather than harm. (Which didn't work, but still.)

[Wolf]

Riiight, riiight, because at one point, Tom and Carl pretty much thought of Wizardry and the Speech as cosplay, larping, etc. (To me, the only confusing thing about slowly losing your power levels as you get older is, how can Tom and Carl do all this big stuff if they're older and supposedly have less oompf? Experience and complex spells, I guess?)

Idea.... what if someone put a spell to make a certain plant in a certain area grow, and then the plant was moved? Would the spell then break down I guess, because the plant is now in a different location? I'm guessing yes... which I think was part of my semi-bull answer to the cancer question. All those little buggers moving around at once... ack! Although I do wonder now the same thing that 96bookworms said- couldn't the just describe Nita's mom as she was without the cancer? Or would it just set her back in time, make her lose her memory, and the cancer would probably grow [back] anyway... =(

Totally forgot about the live-cancer-cells-thing. That made for some interesting conversation, eh?

[Priellan]

To add to the idea about moving a plant, what about the universe's expansion affecting long-lasting wizardries? For example, will the huge overlays of wizardry in Ireland slowly fade over time because Earth is moving or will they stay forever for some other reason?

[Wolf]

Umm. Hmmm....

I'd definitely have to read the book again, but I feel like Nita's aunt told her things were slowly fading, but because there was so much activity, there are still loads of things going on to be noticed. Brilliant question, though... can't believe I didn't springboard off my own thought! Maybe by the time the wizardry comes apart, the civilization or the circumstance that made it come to be will be gone or changed by then, so it won't matter?? (Which of course makes me wonder about Dari's little computer children, where things are "different" in their part of the universe...)

[SilveredBlue]

Cosplay? Larping? I've never heard those words before...*scratches head* Gotta look them up.

anyway- Wolf: Good point, but I don't think that the spell would break if the plant was moved, since the kind of spell that would cause the plant to grow would be a talking one, to convince the plant to grow. The plant's remembrance of the 'conversation' would not change depending on location.

Priellen: The same goes for Ireland, I think, since it has a 'soul' and a 'memory'. I think the overlays were fixed by the Tuatha de Danaan, the People of the Air, going to live in Timeheart, though, since the overlays were caused by their presence in the first place. At least that was my impression.

However, some spell that does not require talking or changing something's mind would break if the set parameters were violated somehow. Like the seeming that Dairine put on the houseguests in WH: if someone touched the seemings, that someone could see through them. So it depends on the spell.

Finally, I think that Nita couldn't change her mom's name to get rid of the cancer since that would still, in a way, be 'killing' the cancer virus and would be a violation of her Oath. It might not work anyway, though, since there were so many of the virus(es?) in the first place, which was Nita's problem when trying to change the cancer's view. There were just too many to get, even with the power from the glede. Also, would Betty even want that? She decided not to use the power of the glede to become semi-immortal since that meant she'd become nasty and bitter with clinging to life.

Just my two cents...hope it MAKES sense!

[Wolf]

I always enjoy your two cents, SilveredBlue, even if it confuses us even more. =)

Larping is Live Action Role Playing... think Renaissance Fair, except with groups of friends. And... and heck of a lot more complicated, from my one friend's activities. Cosplay is the same thing, basically. (I just used both terms in case someone didn't understand.. nevermind though, lol!)

Okay so I forgot about the conversation with plants thing... in my mind I was thinking about it more as an inanimate object, not as a living thing. I guess either way I'd argue it, it would be a moot point any way. As for Ireland, I don't think the People of the Air took it all away instantaneously, but maybe that's where I got my "fading away" idea.

Your whole bit about Nita's mom makes a lot of sense, too... I was thinking more computer-ness; my dad knows this trick where you can fool the computer into thinking it's a week ago, and recover information and such. That idea came to mind about Nita's mom, but the cancer would just be set back a bit on their "mission." (That whole scene with Betty "inside" herself, being all-powerful, was pretty darn impressive though, wasn't is?! )

[Priellan]

Cosplaying usually involves dressing up as a character from a work of fiction, while LARPing can be either from a work of fiction or an original series. From what I know, LARPing is usually based on tabletop games like D&D. The biggest difference is that cosplay usually doesn't involve actually acting like the character, but just dressing as them and posing for photos of some kind.

With the cancer, couldn't its name have been rewritten to be a benevolent part of Nita's mother? I guess that was what Nita was trying to do in the first place and having so many cells made it difficult to name and therefore get rid of all at once. I wonder what would have happened if they had gotten together a network of wizards who would rename every cancer cell in Nita's mom's body as something that wouldn't kill her... the problem would probably be getting enough people willing to do it.

[SilveredBlue]

Wolf: That's what my most of my friends say: I'm interesting but confusing. =D Maybe I need to take some more Logic classes so that I can get my thoughts out in a clearer way....
Priellen:I think that was exactly what Nita was trying to do, with her mother's kernel. Her power couldn't reach far enough to neutralize all of the cancer, though: in the last scenes, Nita knows that even though her part is clean, in the far reaches of her mother's body there are still scores of viruses snickering at her.

Oh, yes: The part with Nita's mother as a goddess was amazing. So heartbreaking and yet cool...I think that's DD's signature style: fierce and courageous, yet full of emotion. Like the Winged Defender Herself. (And I love the fact that both are wearing jeans when they're revealed at their full power.)