Israel/Palestine Discussion

[db_pr]

This has been moves from "Which religion is right for you?".

LAST POST:

Emily: You satsted that Hamas is equally guilty of human rights abuses as Israel is, and I agree with you. What angers me isthe fact that the US refuses to condemn Israel for this, while Hamas is (quite rightly) condemmed as a terrorist organisation. I see Israel opressing the Palestinian people in a way the Jews wee themselves opressed for so long.
Yes, the Jews suffered grave injustices of the worst kind imaginable in the past - but that doesn't forgive the terrible actions of Israel against innocent people today.

----BY WILF

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[db_pr]

Emily:

Some people would regard being kicked out of the place where they have been living for years as a violent act.

Israel has been backed by the largest empire in the world, Arabs are fighting by themselves, and have little official territory.

In a way, the jews attacked first, the arabs are on the defensive.

And in a way, if there was no religion in the first place, none of this would've happened.

[kaiba4ever]

I'm Jewish, so my opinion might be slightly biased, (considering the fact that we send alot of money towards Israel for the war and their economy and I have distant relatives and know people who are fighting there...)

In the beginning, some back like 5000 years, the Hebrews lived in the land of Canaan. That basically covered where Israel is today or at least it was nearby, or around that sort of area. So they were "there" first, but it was so long ago that we don't have any actual proof... But as times grew more recent (King David and the First/Second Temples and such, which was still quite long ago >_< ) the Hebrews came back to their ancient land, which was very swampy and disgusting. They planted Eucalyptus trees (sp?) and made it fertile. So if it weren't for them in the first place, no one wouold be even able to live on this land. However, they are banished (by forgot who) and are forced to leave the sacred land, while they are away...

Meanwhile, the cultures and the people who would become the Palestinians are evolving. They live in this land and obviously claim it for their own (well, duh, 'cause they live there). And now, after the recent Zionist movement (like in the 60s or something) Large groups of Jews (among other religions who want to return to their roots and the Holy Land) start coming back, and dricing the people living there now out. It's been thousands of years since they have been here, and meanwhile the Palestinians have been living here peacefully for many many generations. Is it fair that they have previous claim, from many many centuries before, to kick the people presently here and who have been here for a long time now, out and claim it for their own when so many people have made their previous land there home? Doesn't those multiple thousands of years of being away cause them to lose at least partial ownership on this speck of land? But it was their's previously, so is it fair that the Arabs and others have stolen their Holy Land and settled here without permission and consent? Wouldn't the people living there is recent and present times have more claim than those that lived there thousands of years ago in ancient times, when religion itself was only beginning? But after being exhiled and treated unfairly (to put it on the simpler side), even after undergoing a horrible genocide, don't they deserve a place to settle down and be safe after centuries of death and suffering, at least more so than any other religion in the world?

Personally, I see this fighting as rather.... stupid. Israel is such a small piece of land, why do the Palestinians (who have alot of land) even care? Terrorism is considered a norm in Israel now. People being blown up is buses when coming home from the grocery store-- should something like THAT be an every-day happening? No, thats not right.Should so many innocent lives be carelessly slaughtered? But what about the way that Israel reacts and retaliates to these attacks? Is building a giant wall around Gaza (to keep the Palestinians and Terrorists out) fair? Cutting off their society from the rest of Israel and delibaretly building something like this is definately not fair. What about the majority of the people who live in Gaza that don't have any connections with terrorism, should they be punished for what other people do like this? Israel then strikes back, killing many people with their extreme forces (Israel is VERY strong for such a small state...), and then they end up killing as many innocent people as the suicide attacks upon themselves had...

Looking at this war, thats been going on for such long time now, and looking at the ancient past, where fighting has clashed out between so many differing cultures and religions, it makes one wonder why is it so hard to simply achieve world peace... Quelt was right, the Lone One really does have a tight grip upon our planet.

Wow, I had a surprising amount to say. It's been a few years since I've looked up on any of this information though (we studied this stuff back in hebrew school), so I may err in some places. It also seemed that I repeated each poitn more than twice...But whatever....

[Emily B.]

Originally posted by db_pr:
Emily:

Some people would regard being kicked out of the place where they have been living for years as a violent act.

Israel has been backed by the largest empire in the world, Arabs are fighting by themselves, and have little official territory.

In a way, the jews attacked first, the arabs are on the defensive.

And in a way, if there was no religion in the first place, none of this would've happened.

Except that it was the British who established Israel in 1948, not the Jews, so shouldn't they have attacked London by that logic?
There was an equal split of land in 1948, with a shared Jerusalem, and the surrounding arab nations (who are hardly fighting on thier own, they're fighting with the support of all the Muslim countries in the area)
And Israel can hardly be said to have a large official territory, and what little land they have (it was never more than NJ) just got cut by a third, because they handed over Gaza and the West Bank to the PA. Not that that move towards a palistinian state stopped any of the violence towards Israel, there was another bombing by Islamic Jihad on the 26th of Oct in Hadera.

I guess at this point I'm confused about what it is you want Israel to do. They've retreated to the 1948 green line, the PA is holding elections, there will be a Palistinian state. What more should Israel be doing? Up and leaving the Holy land? Rolling over and letting Hamas bomb innocent citizens? What have they been doing since the disengagment this summer that you object to so much?

[Lamarquise]

I wouldn't give up on religion because of the Israelis and Palestinians. Like many so-called "religious" wars, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is mostly a fight over land and power and egos, with a lot of cultural conflict thrown in for good measure. You guys do realize that neither Palestinians nor Israelis are uniformly Muslim or Jewish? There are even a good few Christians among the Palestinians and probably the Israelis too.

Nobody with true religion in them is going to pick a fight over religion. There can be no religious justification whatsoever for terrorism and deliberately targeting innocent people. Unfortunately, there are hotheads and fools of every persuasion who don't understand that the God they're supposed to be serving--whichever God that might be--is not fond of conflict among his children. Sometimes, people feel like their their homes and families, or their religion, are under attack and get embroiled in these things. Sometimes, people simply can't forget and forgive the past.

It's horrible, but you have to understand. People are just people. Without outside help sometimes, and good influences, we tend to get ourselves in trouble. I think people are confused and scared and sometimes just plain corrupted by the desire to have things or power, or satisfy their own apetites or pride. I have faith that peace will be restored someday, and hope that many of us will find a better way and forgiveness, for all of us make mistakes.

[Agent M]

Okay, I told myself that I wouldn't get into this, because my arguments can't compare to most of your guys', I don't know enough to really sink my teeth into this subject, and it's been going on for so long, and it keeps "updating".... I don't know if I have the attention span frankly. But I've been reading this topic, and the posts in "which is religion is right for you?" and I want to comment.
First off, I am going to say something totally naiive: This war sucks. And it shouldn't be happening, in MY mind, there's no reason for it and there's no justification. It's basically two countries, two religions, having a tantrum. Siblings really if you think about it.... Both Israel and Palestine have terrorized the other, and both have lost a lot of people over the years. They both have serious issues.
Second, "Nobody with true religion in them is going to pick a fight over religion" -Lamarquise. I can partly agree with that... or at least the stuff about hotheads but strongly religious people do things like terrorism and murder BECAUSE they are so strongly religious. I don't completely understand it, because I think it's such a screwed up concept (sorry if I'm offending anyone here) but I know that Christians believe that if you do something in the will of God, it's justifiable (sp?). And I'm pretty sure the Jews believe something similar (correct me if I'm wrong), and I wouldn't be surprised if Muslims believed the same. So the Jews and the Muslims are doing what they're doing because of their strong religious beliefs... It's kinda like the Crusades, only that was the Christians and the Muslims...I'm kinda rambling at this point, sorry.
Back on topic, what I'm basically trying to say here is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians believe that they are doing justice to God (or Allah... not sure exactly what the Muslims believe in, 'cept I'm pretty sure they're monotheistic). So you can't really say that what they're doing is unjustifiable, because you'll never get through to them. It's like Hitler, he would have laughed in your face if you told him "Dude, what you're doing is wrong, and why can't we all just get along?" I'm NOT relating the Israel/Palestine issue with the Holocaust or Hitler (someone thought I did that earlier and got pretty offended so PLEASE, that's NOT what I meant, it's just something I'm familiar with and so I can express what I'm thinking better that way, confusing sorry). I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians SHOULD be able to "just get along" but that doesn't seem to be working... I think if SOMEONE could try to figure out how to look at this in the right perspective, they could figure out a solution... because one day there will be a solution, or at least, I really hope so. The UN TRIED to see from the right perspective, and that DID NOT WORK. So maybe we should just leave this to the Israelis and the Palestinians, maybe if we leave them to their own destruction, they'll learn... But that's a dumb and cruel thing to say... And hypocrytical seeing as the rest of the world (*cough* US vs Iraq *cough*) is having the same war issues as Israel and Palestine. The world is just one f***ed up place sometimes, but we have to deal with it. That's the way I'm starting to see it. We have to DEAL with it or we're never going to get anywhere... Maybe we should just send the Israelis and the Palestinians to their rooms without dinner and see if they'll think about what they've done... heh.
Sorry if that was confusing to anyone, and probably very rambly and off topic... And there's so much more that I want to say but I don't know how to say it... that's why I didn't contribute in the first place, I'm not good at expressing what I feel unless I know every angle, or I'm sure about it. So most of this is probably crap.. but that was my 5 cents that I wanted to contribute and now I'm gonna shut up...

[Lamarquise]

Hey Agent M - Just wanted to respond really quickly.

You'll notice I said true religion. The people with the real problem here are ones who've been taught that their religion justifies terrorism, who've been taught to hate. But mostly, I think these extremists try to cloak themselves in religion without the true goodness or power of it in them. I think most of the people in these conflicts are far more concerned about land and past horrors and atrocities than truly concerned with religion. But that's just me.

[Wilf]

Originally posted by Emily B.:
I guess at this point I'm confused about what it is you want Israel to do. They've retreated to the 1948 green line, the PA is holding elections, there will be a Palistinian state. What more should Israel be doing? Up and leaving the Holy land? Rolling over and letting Hamas bomb innocent citizens? What have they been doing since the disengagment this summer that you object to so much?

Actually, Israel has not repsected the Green Line (i.e the borders drawn up under the 1949 armistice agreement). The wall set up "around" the West Bank heavily encoraches into the West Bank. In many cases, people have cut off from their own farmland.
You ask what Israel should do. Bearing in mind that Israel has officialyy commited itself to the two state solution, I think that Israel should:
1) Withdraw all its forces from the West Bank and the Gaza strip to the Israeli side of Green Line, and decree that the Green Line shall be Israel's border.
2) Recognise the Palestinian state as an independent country.
3) Cease all military attacks within Palestinian land.
4) Remove all illegal Israeli settlements from the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

It should be noted that Israel is alreday obliged to do (1) and (4) under previous UN resolutions, and as it officially belives in a two-state solution then (2) follows. Once you accept (2), then (3) & (4) are how one country behaves to another.

[Emily B.]

Right, and those 4 things are what the disengagment is, which Israel is in the process of doing. They removed all the Jewish settlements from West Bank and Gaza this summer, the PA is holding elections to form their own state. It sounds to me like their doing exactly what you say you want them to be doing. I don't get what you're upset about them.

[Wilf]

I get annoyed at the fact that far too many many people think that Israel is lilly-white innocent, and has done nothing whatsover to warrant the agression of Palestinian terroists.

There is also the point that Israel has not done anything in the way of disengagement from Gaza, has done nothing about its millitary forces in either area, have continued to build the West Bank wall along a course far into Palestinian terrority, and have not made any mention of recognising Palestine as an independent country.
They have not given any sort of timetable for doing any of the things I mentioned in my last post. Granted, they have withdrawn illegal settlements from the West Bank, but that is all.

[db_pr]

Personally, I see this fighting as rather.... stupid. Israel is such a small piece of land, why do the Palestinians (who have alot of land) even care?

Religious fighting... which is even stupider.

[Moeen]

Well, this is a topic that can easily lead to disagreements, and a problem in discussing it is often a lack of knowledge of the history and reasons behind the conflict. I'm not going to address the issue directly, but take some time out here to try and explain the historical context behind it. In particular, I'll try to explain why so many in the the Middle East dislike the West and how the current situation involving terrorism throughout the world came about. Sorry for going off on a bit of tangent, but I think it's important for people to know something about it.

If you want to know where I'm getting this information from, it's mostly from a one hour documentary that aired on PBS about a couple of months ago. Unfortunately I can't find a website for the program, but you can find a press release here. I encourage anyone who wants to learn more to see the documentary. I'll only discuss some of the points, so here goes:

Shortly after the attacks on the World Trade center on September 11, 2001, Osama bin Laden released a videotape where he said that these attacks were a response to the humiliation and disgrace that the Middle East suffered at the hands of the West over 80 years ago. Most people the US and Europe had no idea what he was talking about (do you?), but his intended audience, people living in the Middle East, did. He was referring to the end of World War I. Before World War I started, the Middle East was ruled largely by the Ottoman Empire, which had become an oppresive regime towards the end of its days. The Arabs actually helped the British and the Allies overthrow the Ottoman Empire, in hopes for independence. What they got in return was colonialization. This was the beginning of hatred towards the West in the Middle East. The Arabs felt justifiably betrayed, and to make things worse, the Allies did not treat their subjects well (fairly typical of colonialization). The Allies were conquerers, not nation builders, and this built up resentment among the people of the Middle East.

Many people there wondered how things had gotten so bad for them, and some felt that it was because they had in some ways abandoned Islam, and so called for what they saw as a stricter adherence to religion. This was the beginning of what's usually referred to as Islamic fundamentalism or Islamic extremism. One of the results of this was that stricter rules were enforced, for example, women were often forced to wear veils in public. After all, feeling that they had little control over what was happening around them, they tried to maintain control over what they could, namely, their families.

To make matters worse, after World War II and so many Jews were displaced, the state of Israel was created, displacing Palestinians. Many of the Arab nations, having only recently been freed from colonial rule, felt justified in viewing the state of Israel as another form of control by the West. The Arab-Israeli war of 1948 then took place, and the Arab nations suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Israeli troops. This created even more resentment against the West, which now extended to Jews as well. Ironically, many Jews who had coexisted peacefully with Arabs and Arab Jews in Arabs lands for centuries were effectively forced to move to Israel due to discrimination, becoming refugees in all but name.

Later on during the Cold War, the Soviet Union saw an opportunity to spread communism in the Middle East by promoting it as being anti-Western, as Britain and parts of Europe were against communism. The Soviets sent delegates to various countries in the Middle East to bring communist policies, and in response, the United States decided to strengthen ties with Israel to counter the Soviet influence in the region. The ties between Israel and the United States is what then lead to hatred of the United States by Islamic extremists and many Arabs in general.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the views of westerners by the people of the Middle East hasn't changed much. This is basically how Islamic extremism came about. There some other important points that I haven't discussed, such as how Islamic extremism then managed to spread to other countries in Asia, and I haven't mentioned too many details. If you want to learn more, I'd recommend watching the documentary, as it goes into a much more detailed explanation, and discusses other issues that I haven't mentioned here. I just wanted to try and clarify some things. I think it's really unfortunate that it took an event like the attacks on the World Trade Center for people to see the anger and resentment against the West in the Middle East.

As Thomas Friedman puts it in the documentary: "For the past 50 years, we basically treated the Arab world as a series of big gas stations, and all we cared was that you keep the pump open, the prices low and be nice to the Jews -- and you can do whatever you want out back. You can treat your women however you want. Teach whatever you want in your schools -- whatever you want. Well, guess what? On 9/11, we got hit with everything going on out back."

Also, the program shows that Islamic extremism is not really a problem with the religion Islam as some might think or are lead to believe. As journalist and historian Fareed Zakaria pointed out early in the program: "The problem is not with Islam as a whole. The problem really is the Middle East -- and the Arab world in particular. This is not inherently a religious issue which is therefore unanswerable, but a political and historical issue which has very specific roots and causes, and can have specific cures."

Indeed, anyone who has a decent understanding of Islam and its history, could see that Islamic extremism and terrorism is not so much a religious, but a political and social movement, which didn't exist before the 20th century. Some are led to believe that what the extremists say and do is representative of the religion, and this has led some people to argue that the religion is an oppressive and intolerant one. In the context of history and Islam as whole, this doesn't really make any sense. First of all, Islam has existed for over a millenium, and Muslims have coexisted quite peacefully with people of other religions throughout the world all that time. Second of all, over a billion people in the world today claim to follow Islam, which more than one in every six people alive. Does it make any sense that so many people in the world could be intolerant towards others? Unfortunately, because terrorists get most of the attention in the media, this is what people see. Most people in the US probably identify Muslims with Arabs, and don't know that Indonesia, a country in southeast asia, has the largest Muslim population in the world.

For those of you who'd like to learn more about the religion of Islam, here are a couple of documentaries on it I've seen that are very good. They are given here with links to the webpages of the respective programs on the titles. The documentary Islam: Empire of Faith discusses how the religion came about and progressed though history, and how it helped bring about advances in science and affected cultures in Europe and Asia. The documentary Muhammad: Legacy of A Prophet is about the life of the prophet and the impact his life has on everyday Muslims. The site also offers some explanations here about Islamic perspectives on subjects that are often mistaken or misunderstood.

For those of you more inclined to written media (as I'm sure some of you are since this is a site about a novel series, after all), there is a book about Islam as a religion and its development throughout history entitled "No god but God" by Reza Aslan. I haven't read it myself yet, but reviews of the book have been very good, and the author is an Iranian-American Muslim who was an Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at the University of Iowa, so I'd say he knows what he's talking about. His homepage can be found here.

Okay, I've gone on for long enough, but I hope this helps. Just remember that in any discussion, it helps to know what you're talking about and not to say things that you think might be wrong (or at least mention that you might be). Also, don't hate anyone or anything, because that will only make things worse. After all, that's how so many of the world's problems are created, and in the Young Wizards Universe, you'd then only be playing right into the Lone One's hands and increasing the entropy of the universe, and you wouldn't want that to happen.

[Emily B.]

Originally posted by Wilf:
I get annoyed at the fact that far too many many people think that Israel is lilly-white innocent, and has done nothing whatsover to warrant the agression of Palestinian terroists.

There is also the point that Israel has not done anything in the way of disengagement from Gaza, has done nothing about its millitary forces in either area, have continued to build the West Bank wall along a course far into Palestinian terrority, and have not made any mention of recognising Palestine as an independent country.
They have not given any sort of timetable for doing any of the things I mentioned in my last post. Granted, they have withdrawn illegal settlements from the West Bank, but that is all.

(sorry this took so long to post, i've had a very hectic week)
I'm not suggersting that Israel has never done anything that's even questionable, that's not the case. It'snot the case for any country on Earth though, and no one has done aything that justifies the sort of blind hatred that Israel is subjected to.
And they have pulled out of Gaza, they pulled out of Gaza in september,( Ha'Aretz )and since that time have been coping with rocket fire from the area into Israel by assorted islamic extreamist groups. Israel ias every intention of recognizing palistine as an official country as soon as Palistine holds elections so that they have a gov't that can be recognized (which the PA is in the process of doing.) Israel appears to be doing everything you want them to be doing, and doing it in a timly manner.

[Birdhead]

Thanks, before I start, to everyone who's been so very informative in this debate. It's awesome and I've learnt a tonne, because this is hardly my area of expertise. :P I still have a few things I want to say, though.

Firstly, the difficult thing about saying that the Palestine/Israel conflict is non-religious is that, well, it kindof is and it kind of isn't. Some of the really important stuff, like whose land is whose and who gets to live where, really isn't religious, and maybe is often more of a problem of heavily-armed colonialism versus the colonialised (and disenfranchised... in my opinion. ButI'm being balanced here.) On the other hand, some of the problems are, if not strictly religious, inherently bound to religion. For example, Israel was created as a- or the, rather?- Jewish state. Um. I have a very, very scanty understanding of Judaism, but in principle it's a religion, right? Along with a race, but primarily a religion- I mean, you can convert to Judaism, although it's difficult (again, anyone who knows more than I do should feel absolutely free to come along and correct me.) Secondly, Jerusalem is a very important holy place to both Jews and Muslims (and Christians.) Or maybe that should be holy to all three of the religions- I mean, they're all pretty much the same religion with a couple of big schisms, right? (*ducks* Um, kidding, sort of. Well, no, not really, but I accept that in practical terms they're different religions.) I digress- because of the religious importance of Jerusalem (+other parts of Israel? I really don't know) there is never going to be a wholly political and racial solution to this problem, just as there is never going to be a religious one (and thanks for the bit about Western/MiddleEastern relations, Moeen, I found that awfully useful.)

And now: a little rebuttal (so sue me, I work in retail.)

Except that it was the British who established Israel in 1948, not the Jews, so shouldn't they have attacked London by that logic?

Actually, I suspect it was both Britain and the United States (I'm not even going to comment on the idea of them attacking London. Oh, no, yes, I am. The reason they didn't attack London- or Washington- is manifold but I think we can break it down to two reasons:
1. They had no way of getting there. This is- was- a collection of people who have been kicked out of their homes, however you justify it, are really not well off at all- they don't have aeroplanes, they don't have the pockets of the United States and the Western World with all that post-WWII guilt, not to mention relations sending money out, to give them money for weapons (90 (Was it 90 or 30?) Days War really hammered the point home that the Israelis had far, far superior arms and resources- this was never a fair fight- I mean, seriously, if the Palestinians had aeroplanes don't you think they might have used them at some point? Instead of blowing themseves up on buses? Suicide bombers do not come from wealthy countries, they come from poor ones because the human body is agile, it's useful, it can get anywhere, but most importantly, it's really, really cheap. And, I mean, kind of a last resort because suicide bombers? Not really an effective method of warfare unless all you're trying to do is make a statement (in an incredibly awful, terrible way; but sometimes that's the only choice you have.) or inspire terror, which, really, who wants to do? All you get is a whole lot of trouble. But, think about it, that's notwhat the Palestinians- I think, and remember all my caveats- are trying to do. They don't want to tell the Israelis that they're seriously pissed, EVERYONE knows that, Palestine/Israel is HIGH profile in the way that, say, the situation in Afghanistan/Iran/Kurdistan/eight zillion tiny African nations/pick your poison really wasn't/isn't. What they want is their country back, and blowing up a busload of kids and grannies? Terrible, awful, really not that effective. If they had another way to do it, I think they'd be using it.

Okay, I've really digressed again, but my second point: they wanted their land back, they didn't want to beat up whoever, Churchill I think. When you want land, you siege/invade/whatever the land you, um, actually want. Wouldn't be much point, otherwise, would there?

OH MY GOD parenthesis. )

Where was I? Oh yeah, creation of Jewish state in the 1940s. Interestingly, during WWII, both American and British governments promised the bit of land where Israel now is to both the Jews and the Arabs. The reason the Jews got it? Money. *shrug* I'm not-I hope- one of those godawful people who goes on and ON and ON about the rich Jews and their evil, malevolent influence in the country, but I think there really was, and maybe is, sufficient Jewish influence at that time to swing this kind of thing. Particularly in the United States. And, hey, this is just post-WWII, there's a whole lotta guilting going on (deservedly. I'm being kind of flip, and I'm sorry because it's the only way I know how to reat this but WWII was, you know, about genocide. That's kind of a huge concept, and there is a huge, huge history of European racism against Jews in general. Read The Merchant of Venice lately?) Anyway. I just thought that was an interesting fact.

Terrorism is considered a norm in Israel now.

And in Palestine, too.

There was an equal split of land in 1948, with a shared Jerusalem, and the surrounding arab nations (who are hardly fighting on thier own, they're fighting with the support of all the Muslim countries in the area)

Was it an equal split? I'd love to see some references- I'm not necessarily questioning, it's just been awhile since I studied this.

As for support of Muslim countries- I'd take the support of the USA over the support of the Muslim countries anyday, and that's what Israel has, and has had. Let's not forget that Israel is vastly superior in arms and in wealth.

At any rate, thanks again to everyone, and please take all of the above with the caveat that I last studied this in 2000 and haven't reviewed it since, am totally atheist and probably biased towards the colonised, coming from a colony. :P

[Lamarquise]