Atheism

[Cress]

I recently read a newspaper article about atheism that had some interesting points. I consider myself atheist, however I'm bordering on agnostic.
One of the things that I thought was different was that some people thought that atheists were unpatriotic, or that they had no right to be American citizens. They had no moral compass. I thought that was rather off as some of the nicest people I know are atheist.
Thoughts?

[KizzyShima]

I have a large group of friends who are atheists. As I'm still trying to figure out what I am, I'm sitting among the atheists as well. I don't think there's anything wrong with the belief, and the idea that atheists are "unpartriotic" is rather unjust. Believing in your country is different than believing in a specific religion.

Plus, if you're born in America, or live in America, shouldn't you have the right to be a citizen, regardless of what you believe?

[matthew]

I think it's fine (I'm not one-christian) as it is america and every one has the

freedom of relgion

... however *not blaming it on you though* i do think that that one case where that atheist tried to take off the "under god" part of the Pledge of Allegence is going to far...

[Small town]

Yes the trying to edit the Plege is going top far. Im still trying to figger out what I am but im leaning twards a certan religon not saying what. The point of this country is for freedom of religon.

[db_pr]

Christians and religious people talk so much about "equality" and how we are all brothers and sons of the same God.

If what they say is true and they aren't just hypocritical idiots, then why would they go around saying atheists don't have the right to live in america? Whoever says that is an ignorant, hypocritical idiot.

I am non-religious, not strictly an atheist because I believe that there may be a God, but life has enough problems to **** it up even more because of a possible "after-life".

[Lamarquise]

Whoa...whoa...I haven't ever heard any Christians or believers that have ever said anything like that. (Referring to any comment that atheists don't have the right to live in America, I mean.) Nor do I believe saying anything like that would be appropriate. And I'm sure atheists can be very decent people. I do have to say, though, that atheists and believers can see things...especially morality...very differently because many atheists don't accept certain teachings believers consider very important as having any moral force or bearing on them. And when those teachings become part of the law of society, or when believers believe they should be the law of society, voilà an instant recipe for some very difficult conflicts.

[wildflower]

And I'm sure atheists can be very decent people.

Decent? Try reversing that and applying it to Christians. Maybe try that with a lot of things before you post them.

I'm an atheist, and almost all of my friends are Christian. Comes of living in the south (not by choice). I'm quite sure that Christians can be very decent people as well. I would even go as far as to say that several of them are, in fact, awesome.

Look, what I'm trying to say is, don't start at zero with an unfamiliar religion and work your way up with redeeming points. I don't believe that religion has anything to do with how nice someone is.

As I'm still trying to figure out what I am, I'm sitting among the atheists as well.

I wouldn't say that you're atheist by default if you're still trying to figure out what you are. That's agnostic, isn't it?

[alla]

And I'm sure atheists can be very decent people. I do have to say, though, that atheists and believers can see things...especially morality...very differently because many atheists don't accept certain teachings believers consider very important as having any moral force or bearing on them.

My apoligies if I have read this the wrong way, Lar, but it seems to me like you are saying that atheists don't have any morals. Now the following things that I am about to say are not intended to offend anyone, but in my experience, I have found that "strict" Christians seem to have less social morals than atheists have. From going to an Anglican school and have two of my best friends turn on me for no apparent reason, and then refuse to forgive (which I believe is one of the basic things about Christianty) and forget and be friends again really irked me. Then we had sermons or talks about friends forgiving and making up after fights, and that this did not move either of them to try and make up really bothered me. Even I was nearly inspired to try and make up, but I had had enough of the whole situation. Before that incident, I was even starting to lean towards Christianity. Now I live somewhere on the atheist side.

Most of, perhaps all of, the main wars have been fought over some religious difference (I'm not really that much of a history buff, but I'm thinking of the Crusades, WWII at least, even the current conflicts in the world today).


I think that agnostic, is that you believe that there is something there, but its not <STRIKE>nescess</STRIKE>... <STRIKE>necessess</STRIKE>... I give up; its that you believe that there is something there, but its not 'God' as it/they belong to the various religions. I guess a (rather far fetched) example would be that if you get this feeling that the Universe is out to get you and you believe that Murphy is having fun with you or something.

The above is just my opinion. No offence intended towards anyone Most people who follow religions are wonderful and nice.

Alla

[Space Cadet]

I do have to say, though, that atheists and believers can see things...especially morality...very differently because many atheists don't accept certain teachings believers consider very important as having any moral force or bearing on them.

Wow, Lamarquise, that rather hurt.

I'm sure it's not your fault you have been told that those who do not believe in your god do not have the same morals or the same access to faith/knowledge/enligtenment/whatever as you, but other people have different view points.

I am a scientist at heart, so 'faith' is difficult, if not impossible, for me. But that does not mean that I don't believe that 'love thy neighbour' or other morals are bad ideas. In fact I expand upon them. I don't just love my 'neighbours'; I love people everywhere. That is how I can feel so at home here in Japan.

I think that gods and goddesses are created by humans. They are an effect of our brains processing the information of life. But each brain is different. Therefore, I think that religion ought to be a personal thing, and each person ought to have their own gods.

But then again, I am a loner. I do not feel the need for an organised group religion. I do not feel the need to congregate once a week in order to worship. Taking a lonely walk somewhwere beautiful on a peaceful day is worship enough for me. But as I do that, I am thinking about how it is my brain that is making the divinity I see in the trees and the birds. Because I am a scientist at heart.

[Gryphon]

Lamarquise:
Whoa...whoa...I haven't ever heard any Christians or believers that have ever said anything like that. (Referring to any comment that atheists don't have the right to live in America, I mean.)

I don't beleive that all Christians or all people of any religion beleive that atheists shouldn't live in America, but there's a lot of hate towards atheists. I've been bullied because I was one, and it's also almost gotten between me and one of my friends. Some people beleive that atheists are slime because we don't beleive in God, and so we have no morals or values or that we're Satanists (... but that's not possible, 'cuz atheists don't beleive in Satan either :P ). Because we're not "God-fearing," then we apparently we're the cause of all of the crime and violence in the world. "What good Christian would do such a thing...?"

The other day in history, we even got into a debate over whether the 10 Commandments should be allowed to be hung up on the walls, and one of the most vocal speakers said, "I don't think Muslims and anyone but Christians should live in America. If you have problems with our 10 Commandments and the use of "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, then leave this country! Go to the middle east! When this country was started, it was because people were leaving to get religious freedom, and they were all different Christians trying to get religious freedom."

I may be pro-abortian, but I don't plan on getting pregnant as a teen so I'd need to use one. I support gay rights; it's my beleif that being gay is not a choice, and so, like being left-handed, they shouldn't be penalized in any way for something they can't help. I do not, however, want to go down to the park and shove a needle of heroine into my arm and make out with every guy I see, nor do I support murder, and I strongly beleive in helping the poor and the less fortunate; I'm not greedy, selfish, slothful, or indecent.

And let me make this very clear by saying that all atheists do not agree with me. Some are violently opposed to abortion and other issues which some Christians beleive to be at the top of their list of morals.

I know there are some great, understanding Christians who don't hold it against me that I don't beleive the good will go to Heaven or that I was not God's creation. I also know that there are radical Christians who bomb abortion clinics not unlike terrorists under the Islamic banner, and then turn around and hate the Islams when the terrorists happen to be the minority in the Islamic faith.

:P I can list even more wars and conflicts that began entirely because of religion. Can you see why people would say that religion is a terrible thing that should be eliminated? I don't agree with that, but there's something called "toleration" and "understanding."

Doesn't agnostic mean you're not entirely sure what beleif you are? That you're not sure if there's a "creator" or not?

[Agent M]

This topic was bound to hurt people's feelings, seeing as most of the people here don't seem to be Christian, including myself, but I'm not atheist either. The thing that bothers me about Christians, and basically all other relgions except maybe Buddhism (and that's only the truly devout Buddhists), think their religion is better than anyone elses. No one's religion is better than anyone else because no one knows what the "true religion" is, and I don't particularily care. Personally, I believe that there is some "celestial being" out there somewhere that created the universe (our universe, hence the lower case 'u', because yeah, I actually believe that there are other universes out there) but I don't think that "god" is doing anything. Probably doesn't have any free thought either, that was a fluke in our genetics. That, or the God from the Bible exists and He's become really corrupt, so either way, I'm not a big fan of anyone's "god." But I only really think about the Biblical God as being corrupt when I need to vent, so I ramble a lot about that... but believing that there is a being out there somewhere that created us, that's a religion: deism. It's not a technical religion, but it's basically the same thing as being agnostic. Voltaire was a deist.

The thing that is so annoying about Christians is that they want to spread their religion EVERYWHERE, even when it's not wanted. When you're not Christian, they don't GET it, they can't understand why you're not Christian. But a lot of Christians that I know have no idea why they're Christian either, except that they were brought up with it.

At my school, people where crosses and do the whole "worship Jesus Christ and you will be saved" thing and "In the kingdom of heaven you will be with God, that is the greatest thing possible" (that really bugs me too, some Christians seem to think that after we die, if we go to heaven, then being in the presense God is supposedly the greatest thing anyone could ever feel and we should love Him more than anyone else... riiiiiight...) but anyway, they all SEEM like devout Christians, but if you ask them why, at first they say "Because we love God, Jesus is the prince of peace, etc" Then you ask them why they love God. "He created us." "Let's just say he didn't" "uh..." they don't have a clue. I asked 5 people if they knew who St. Patrick was at my school, a Christian school, they all thought he was a leprechaun. He was a Roman boy who was captured by Irish Celts and taken back to Ireland as a slave. See the similarity? *shakes head*
Anyway, I'm sorry if I dissed the Christians just then, I was venting and rambling, but what else is new? When I get started on this, hard to stop me... (But I did paragraphs this time!)

[Angel_Star]

I'm a Christian. I've was brought up a Christian. I was baptized December 10th, last year. Why do I believe what I believe? Well, I've always believed it, and I know that's not an answer. My mom taught me my religion more than my dad, 'cause she's the one who brings my little brother and me to church ever Sunday. I never really got into an actual relationship with Jesus until about sixth grade. All of this is going to sound crazy to those of you who don't know what I'm talking about. I may sound like someone who's completely lost it and is living in a fantasy world created by her depraved mine. I, however, wholly and completely belive that the Holy Spirit is inside me, and that Jesus lived and died and rose again to save my soul, and that I am a child of God.

We want to spread our religion because we know (though you'll say "think", because you believe us to be wrong here, or misled, however you wish to state it...) that without Jesus, there is no Heaven. And not just because of that. John 3:16 says to make disciples of every nation and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Oh great, now I'm getting preachy. Meh.

As to the saying that God did not create us, well, that takes away one of the basic foundations of Christianity. It's kind of hard to argue a point when you take away the foundation.

I feel like I always have someone with me, someone to listen to me, someone to care about me, someone to love me. Someone who accepts me as I am, and that's enough. Who genuinely "works for the good of those who love Him..." (Romans 8:28). I have someone who won't abandom me, who will lead me to the light. Who is leading me into the light.

*breathes* Sorry if I got really preachy there, but I was just saying what I really believe...

Edit: It seemed like I was putting down other religions or...non-religion, I guess, but that wasn't what I was trying to do. Ick... I sound like I'm basically saying "I'm right, you're wrong, end of story." I don't mean to, but I don't know how to say it any other way. I respect other religions; I don't think the followers are idiots or anything. I don't agree with them, I don't follow them, and I certainly don't think they're right, but I'm not going to go around shouting "You're going to Hell if you don't believe exactly what I do!" And I sound preachy when trying to apologize for sounding preachy! Man, I have issues...ick. I just need to learn how to say stuff the way I want to, instead of ways that I don't want to...

[Cress]

Wow. Reaction! I didn't say that I knew Christians who said atheists shouldn't be allowed to live in america, actually that was said in a newspaper article I read. I think that god shouldn't be in the pledge of allegiance because a huge part of our country is freedom of religion, and if that means the freedom of not having a religion that should be ok. Some religions don't believe in one God with a capital G, and so their beliefs are also being ignored by having that in the pledge of allegience. Also, I believe that the "under God" line was added later to the pledge, so it's not like we want something our founding fathers said to be taken out.
Really truly atheists do have morals. Just because we don't think there's a god up there, doesn't mean we think no one else matters. I actually believe many Christian teachings about how to treat people. I don't always agree with the Church's approach towards making "rules" about morality, but that's ok.

[cilious]

heres my thought on it. i think ppl should just be left alone about their religion if they want to worship god and jesus then let them (im christian by the way). but if they dont believe in it then why make them? they can live how they want to it isnt hurting any one. im not the most devote christian in the world no where near but i try. if some one wants to be an atheist then let them. ask them about it and if they say leave them alone and let them be. i have wonderful friends who are agnostic andatheist. we talk about relgion sometimes but i never force anything on them. i say if u want to be left alone then ppl should leave u alone
thats my take

[Nella]

okay... I'm jewish, and I have to say that Christianity is a beautiful religion, but has been taken out of preportion, and now, some parts of it, are bull. Though I have to say, some parts of judaisim are bull, and same with perhaps every other religion on the plant. In my religion, the most 'devout' position is orthodox. I am not sure what it is in other religions, but what I do know, is that most orthodox positions in all religions are somewhat radical. Their beliefs tend to go to the extreme, and I find myself scorning them. Gays are no abomination, women should not ruin any beauty they have so other men don't look at them. (Those are two examples of extreems from christianity and judaism.) I think Atheists should be respected, I think that their beliefess are completely rational, though i do not agree with them. I think they have morals, and many of them are great, inteligent people. I like athiests sometimes more than devoutly religious people because religion wont ever get in the way from fact, common sense, science, and government for them. It states in the constitution that religion should be seperate from government, many christians forget that. I say christians, not all religions, because at the moment, it is the right wing that is guilty of that right now. Athiests do have moralsm they have totaly normal people, just people who do not have the faith in a higher power. I, personaly, do have faith, but that is just me, my father taught me religion, he himself was brought up christian, but is far from any religion, he has studied all religions, from christian, to budhist, to judaisim, and has pulled knoledge from all of them. Hence, I listen to him. Most religion teaches that all are equal, and just because someone has different beliefes than you, doesnt mean that God will see them any less. I scorn those who think that their religion who is the "right" religion. Do they seriously think, that because of a certain book they read, certain holidays they have, and certain rules they have, that God will see them any differently. If God is really what they describe it ias, endless love, and compasion, and health and care, then y would he be the least bit byast against others.
Angel Star: yes, what you said was offensive, but i doubt anyone will hold it against you. I will not push anything on you, I only want to ask you a few things. First, you cannot say your religion is the "right religion" as for one thing, it is an extremely new religion, brought from judaisim, and has barely any history in comparison to say budisim, or judaisim. You do not only have no way of knowing that your religion is the choosen religion, but it wouldn't make sense even if it was. The "right" religion, would have come up much earlier, say, budhisim. Yes, you are a child of god, but arent we all? and if not, what makes you, any better than me, or Gryphon? Why should we all be baptized? Do you seriously think that I will go to hell? And on top of that, do you seriously think that there is a firery pit with a deamon with a tail cascading around with a pitchfork? There is no such thing, if you are truly evil, you will scorn gods love, and isolate yourself in the dark, empty, etarnal cold of the universe, and that will be your hell. You will rot in isolation for eternaly, in cold, dark, loneliness. And slowly, you will beg for redemptiom, but all you will hear is the echoing silence of infinity. That, is hell, and it is what you create. Athiests are good people, they have all the rights we have, and will be welcomed by god as we will be, because we are all equal. By the way, does anyone here believe in INteligent Design? That, would be an interesting debate...

Sorry 4 the rant... And maybe some of what i said may have been offensive, but what others have said was also offensive, so we should just view this as a friendly debate, because i dont mean any harm or long term hurt feelings..

Nella

Commited Fratcha-bruta