Atheism

[Allie]

Ok i am Catholic and i was baptized when i was three.I go to a catholic school but not everyone there is catholic! some of my friends are Islam ,Buddhist, Menonite, Seventh Day Adven****t, Latter day saints ((Mormans)but not polygamists)and yes even Atheist.I think all religions are special.And though taking God out of the declaration of independence was probably to far, I respect Atheists.

quote:

hist, Menonite, Seventh Day Adventists, Latte

Im sorry about the swear word up there i spelled it wrong! Im sorry

Merged three posts - Peter

[Lamarquise]

Well, if you're looking for alternative points of view, you should probably know I'm a Latter-day Saint (Mormon). In that sense, I'm probably a little more open to seemingly unorthodox theology than many. And I don't think I'm afraid of an argument. I just don't want to get myself into too much trouble.

I can understand in some sense why someone would be agnostic or atheistic...my best friend is probably agnostic and doesn't exactly trust God. But my beliefs add something to my life. They give me a kind of optimism and they help me work to be better. They bring me joy. And in that sense, I'm really glad to believe what I do. It gives me a purpose--a little bit like wizardry--that won't end when I die and a faith in something larger than myself that helps me put things in perspective. I guess everyone looks for some of those things in one way or another.

[bluesalamanders]

Cress-

I think you mean "polytheistic". Polygamous means something quite different.

Allie-

Welcome! You can edit your posts by clicking on the little folder with the - eraser? is that a pencil eraser? it's between the quotes and the exclamation point, anyway. Try not to post one-liners or multiple posts in a row; it's better to edit one post. Read the FAQ for more information on the way things are done around here.

Blue~

[Cress]

Yes I probably did...I don't really remember. I've been tired lately. ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Anyway...the Declaration of Independance thing. I don't think taking God out of the pledge is going too far as some people don't believe in a single god, some people don't call God god (allah) or some people believe in spirits as opposed to a God. It's not just athiests. Because our culture is so dominated by Christian traditions we don't really see when we're actually being excluding of other religions. Or at least that's how it seems to me. When we think of religion we automatically think of God instead of perhaps the Wicca religion.

[bluesalamanders]

Err...are we talking about the Declaration of Independence or the Pledge of Allegiance? The "god" bit was only put into the pledge a long time after it was first used. The pledge was written in 1892 and "under god" was added in 1954 (or so Wiki says).

Blue~

[Cress]

I really have no idea...my brain is not functioning properly lately. Very very tired and a new inhaler mean I'm a bit loopy. So I really don't know. *goes to sleep* Whatever you want us to be talking about.

[jc]

I believe you are talking about the pledge, since the Decleration of Independance doesn't ever actually mention God. (And it hasn't been, and can't be "edited.")

As for removing the "Under God" bit, it wasn't part of the original pledge, so removing it isn't really as big a deal as many people make it out to be.

This is mostly because of the common misconception that America was founded under Christian principles. As far as I know none of the founding fathers was a Christian, although many of them were deists.

For example:

The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
-John Adams

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
-Thomas Jefferson

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.
-Thomas Jefferson

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-Benjamin Franklin (It's a commonly know fact that Franklin was adamantly anit-Christian.)

The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.
-Abraham Lincoln

It is fairly clearly illustrated both in the Declaration and in the personal beliefs of the founders that America was not founded upon Christianity, or on any other religion.

(Note: I am not personally anti-religion, although I am an atheist and do not believe in a god or God.)

[Cress]

I think that's what I was trying to say...at least a bit of it. Thank you to the people who actually have quotes and information to back up their stuff...I just have my opinion for this particular topic. Especially right now. I need a new brain.

[Lamarquise]

[bluesalamanders]

Lamarquise,

Where did you get these quotes from? I searched for them, and the only websites most (though not all) of them were on were religious sites. The James Madison quote in particular is listed on many sites as unproven - there is no corroboration that he said it, or anything like it.

Here, on the other hand, are the quotes that I found:

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

What all agree upon is probably right; what no two agree in most probably is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson's Axiom, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, quoted from Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 445

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819),

And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
-- Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J S Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln's death (Willie died in 1862), quoted by Joseph Lewis in "Lincoln the Freethinker," also appearing in Remsburg's "Six Historic Americans"

Blue~

[Birdhead]

A few days after the fact, but nevertheless... I'm really startled, Lamarquise, that you think this discussion has been antagonistic towards Christians. I've read it as one of the most polite - on both sides of the debate - threads on the topic of religion that I've ever had the pleasure of participating in. Religious debates have got out of hand here before (although, frankly, not to a scale that comes close to matching most forums; I think TPTB do rather well here!) but I thought we'd managed this one fairly well. Still, while I regret that you may feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions, it might be well to remember that for many atheists, voicing their own opinions can be very frightening IRL, in a way many Christians don't understand; this might be a welcome reversal. (OTOH, for you, I know that latter-day saints take a lot of crap, too, so that's not really a fair criticism of you.)

What troubles me a little is that people here seem to be rather dismissive of Christ. Is that all people think he is, a story?

A few responses to that: firstly, don't dismiss the power of a story! I do consider the Bible to be a fantastic mythology and I definitely don't think that it excludes me from taking a lesson away from the stories just because I don't believe in their literal truth. Fortunately, this leaves me free to reject those parts of the Bible that I find repellent, a dilemma that many modern Christians I know struggle with.

Secondly... if you're atheist and you don't believe in something, dismissing it is a fairly reasonable thing to do (especially, as I say, considering some of the less savoury aspects of both the Bible and SOME OF its followers.) Christ's key message is the Golden Rule (do unto others, etc) which appears in some form in every major religion; dismissal of Christ isn't the same thing as dismissing the rule. His story is indeed one of the greatest stories ever told... but so?

And finally, I personally dismiss Christ as "just" a story because the historical evidence for his existence is extremely sketchy indeed. This essay elaborates on this with considerably more historical rigour than I am able to turn upon the topic, and it's written fairly clearly so folks might like to check it out (whether or not you agree with its findings.) It points out that it's not up to skeptics to prove that Christ did not exist; it's up to Christians to prove that he did.

As ever, your mileage may vary. That's sort of the point, right?

[SpeechOrb]

Originally posted by matthew:
i do think that that one case where that atheist tried to take off the "under god" part of the Pledge of Allegence is going to far...

I agree.

Okay, I was thinking about something like this the other, or rather, it might have been along the same lines...

Isn't the One sort of like God? If he created everything, using the help of other Powers, aren't they sort of like Angels? Wizards are just messengers/prophets/helpers of the One, just like the Priests, and Preachers, and Pastors are in churches today. And, Wizards have more power over the universe than just normal people who believe in God (or the One), because they get their powers directly from God (or the One). Ever think about like Moses? God gave him power to part the Red Sea. Huh? Huh?

Anyway, I hope you understand... I don't really have anything against atheists, though I'm not one myself.

[Cress]

Well I think part of what atheists find difficult to believe in religion is the fact that it has so many parallels to magic. Most people today don't believe in magic and some atheists take a "practical" view meaning that if you can't totally and completely prove it, they don't feel the need to believe it.

[Not So Silent One]

Hmm, I've been watching this topic for a while and been thinking on what I should say. As Cress said in the first post some of the nicest people I know are are Atheist, including her. I don't think people should be judged by their religion. I myself am Catholic, but that doesn't mean I harass her to become religious. I think everyone has their own questions about religion, I know I do. I actually believe more
that there isn't any-er-'higher power' myself, just questions for which there are no answers.

And about the whole 'One' thing, I sort of realized that when I was describing the series to a friend...Actually it made me laugh at first...I have no idea why....

Personally, I don't care whether God is in the Pledge or not. I do know, that it was what the countries founders based our country on in the first place, and I think that should be respected. I think it should remain in there as just a simple show of respect towards what they believed in, you know? I know I don't have any fancy quotes, but I think I have made this point simple enough without them.


Well, I think thats it for me for right now....

[Kinz]

Although this is a topic that my friends and I try to avoid (we prefer to agree on things rather than disagree), I have been watching this topic also. I'm Atheist, but almost all my friends are religious. I don't mind. It never comes up between us so it's not a problem. However... I do not believe there is any kind of a God or gods. I believe that when we die, that's it. We're dead. Goodbye. I do, however, respect that other people have other beliefs and I can accept that. I don't have any fancy quotes either, and I'm stuck between wanting the 'under God' part in the pledge and wanting it out. It doesn't actively bother me like I'm going to sit down during the Pledge when we're saying it at school, but I still don't think it's fair for other religions.

I have to go now... but I'll keep checking this thread. I think we've got a very interesting discussion going here.