Welfare

[Gryphon]

This came up in Cedric, Chime, so I'm bringing it in forums because it's a good topic.

Welfare is ********, but it should stay anyway.

Now, for everyone who's missed this point, the next step is to explain my opinion. XD I've already done it in chat, so I'll post what was said.

Agent M: Welfare is dumb
Agent M: but Welfare totally sucks, I know that it's a
democrat thing, and I'm a very liberal democrat, and I
believe in minimum wage, but welfare keeps people in
poverty
Gryphon: because people have a motive to be poor XD
Peter Murray: It's certainly not doing me any good.
Agent M: People depend on the welfare because they
have no reason not to, they don't get jobs, they're not
outgoing... and if people get a certain amount of
money, they get taken completely off welfare which is
dumb too, because when people are first starting out,
that's when they need the help the most
Gryphon: welfare is ********, but i beleive it should
exist, just for the people who truly need it and don't
take advangtage
Agent M: Gryph: Exactly!
Gryphon: otherwise, there's no incentive to go out and
make contacts, get a life, get a job
Gryphon: you're introverted, and you can't get out of
the pit because you feel like you don't need to, so you
don't *try*
Gryphon: you have your security, you don't need a job
dormyZzz: yeah but why not? i mean they get looked
down upon as losers that dunt try enough...if i were
them id do my hardest to show them theyre wrong and
work harder
dormyZzz: ...unless they jus dunt care thats
different...
Gryphon: they just don't care
Gryphon: some of them, at least
Gryphon: see, some people struggle, they don't want
to live off others, live off welfare, but for others
Gryphon: if you get paid to do nothing, do you need to
change?
Gryphon: maybe a little more money would be nice, but
not compared to the drastic change in the amount of
work you'd have to do
dormyZzz: this is why i hate communism
Gryphon: yeah, jobs are hard to get and are scarce,
maybe, but god forbid you should *try* to look for one!
Gryphon: yeah, really XD
Gryphon: communism would be perfect.... if people
didn't suck
dormyZzz: lol
dormyZzz: i hate ppl like that....parasites

[Agent M]

Oooh, another topic I KNOW.
Lemme clear up some of the (brief) stuff I said (I had to go like 1 minute after we started this conversation, so I didn't really get to say much).
See, I did this whole "Vicious Circle" thing at school last year, a lot of it being about Welfare. Welfare is a good idea in theory, but not so much when put into action... If someone is on a welfare plan (or whatever the politically correct term is) then they have no reason to get out of poverty. They have no reason to get a job, earn more money, or even finish college (assuming they haven't already, I'm not trying to stereotype people on welfare, but I think a vast majority probably didn't finish, or didn't go, to college.) I mean, why get a job if you can get free welfare stamps? So if the people that refuse to get out of welfare, because it's easy, don't get a stable job, and don't get money, then it's pretty likely that their kids won't get a good education, which was probably their parents problem in the first place, and then they'll have to get welfare when they're adults, and it'll start all over again. I don't know how much sense that just made, I wrote a paper on it last year and that was the shortened version of it.
The other big problem is that the people that DO try to get out of welfare usually reach a certain point where the Government yanks the welfare away. I know, I know, I just said welfare is bad, right? So why does that matter? Because when people are first starting out with a stable job and money, they need help to STAY stable. So I think that if the Government could just get it through their thick skulls that they should give small amounts of welfare, and take it away little by little... it could potentially be a good thing. That's why we could definitely use a democratic president Republicans HATE welfare type stuff, they don't like helping the poor. It's Darwinism for them... I can see their point, and Darwin had a good point too. But that's for the Animal Kingdom. Humans are different no matter how closely linked we are to animals. Humans need to help other humans. *shrug* that's just my personal opinion though... The only problem is that some democrats are TOO liberal, they want to help the poor TOO much. We need a cross between democrats and republicans... and that's not the Independents, because those are people who just can't make up their mind, or so it seems to me, so I don't exactly approve of their politics.... maybe that's just a stereotype though. *shrugs*

[Gryphon]

XD Independent is a synonym for indecisive when it comes to the US. We're the country so proud of our democracy, our ability to vote, our freedom of speech, and we don't use any of it.

Teachers always complain about the poor students, and again and again, the poor kids are found in the lower phased classes. My school isn't a private school, but it's a math and science school, and it's tough to get into and stay in with all of the work we have to do. In the newspaper a while back, we ended up as the best highschool in the state. The percentage of students in poverty? Zero.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying poor people are stupid or ********. It's more like... you're not pressured to do better because you feel like you don't need it. Your parents got by, and they don't have a great job.

Let me explain that last line. If you're poor, obviously you don't have a good paying job. To the child/children, this means...
a) you never did great in highschool, you're still living
b) you never got/finished further education, you're still living
c) you might not even have a job, and you're doing fine
d) you went through college, and it never paid off; instead, left you in debt
e) you went through college, found a job, but the job was never worth it

There're more, but I'm not going to continue. You've got the picture, right? You can be poor and chose to excell, but the chances are you won't if you don't feel like you have to. Why'll you get a job if you get paid to do nothing? Why'll you try harder if what you've got is fine with you?

[Agent M]

To add to Gryphon's list, it's also sometimes that the kid has to drop out of school to get a mininum wage job to help out their family, which leads to an unfinished education.... Vicious Circle thing again.
And a thing about minimum wage: Minimum wage is a good thing, because it makes sure that people in poverty aren't underpaid... but I was talking about minimum wage with my dad the other day and he mentioned that most people working at places like McDonald's or BK (minimum wage jobs) aren't actually in poverty, they're just seconds in the family, the ones that earn only a little. And it's usually for personal gain, most people that work at McDonald's are teens... and the ones that aren't are probably the husbands or wives that already have spouses making enough money to pay the rent. Does that make any sense? It's starting to make me rethink minimum wage... Because if minimum wage gets moved up from 5.50... do the people at McDonald's really need it? The one thing that I have a republican thought on is appeasing everyone and making everyone happy, just so that life is easier for you, and giving people more money who don't actually need it... *shrugs* I don't know, I'm confused and I'm probably confusing everyone else here... *sigh*
EDIT: Okay, I just got an email from my dad about poverty, doesn't have to do with welfare but still... :
Subject: Poverty in Perspective
>> >
>> >
>> >> One day, the father of a very wealthy family took his
>> >> son on a trip to the country with the express purpose of showing
him
> how
>> >> poor people live.
>> >>
>> >> They spent a couple of days and nights on the farm of
>> >> what would be considered a very poor family.
>> >>
>> >> On their return from their trip, the father asked his son, "How
was
>> >> the
>> > trip?"
>> >>
>> >> "It was great, Dad."
>> >>
>> >> "Did you see how poor people live?" the father asked.
>> >>
>> >> "Oh yeah," said the son.
>> >>
>> >> "So, tell me, what did you learn from the trip?" asked the
father.
>> >>
>> >> The son answered: "I saw that we have one dog and they had four.
>> >> We have a pool that reaches to the middle of our garden and they
have
>> >> a
>> >> creek that has no end. We have imported lanterns in our garden
and
>> >> they have the stars at night. Our patio reaches to the front
>> >> yard and they have the whole horizon. We have a small piece of
land to
>> > live
>> >> on and they have fields that go beyond our sight. We have
servants who
>> > serve
>> >> us, but they serve others. We buy our food, but they grow theirs.
We
>> >> have walls around our property to protect us, they have friends
to
>> >> protect
>> >> them."
>> >>
>> >> The boy's father was speechless.
>> >>
>> >> Then his son added, "Thanks, Dad, for showing me how poor we
are."
>> >>
>> >> Isn't perspective a wonderful thing? Makes you wonder
>> >> what would happen if we all gave thanks for everything we have,
>> >> instead
>> >> of
>> >> worrying about what we don't have.
>> >> Appreciate every single thing you have, especially your friends !
>> >>
>> >> Pass this on to friends and acquaintances and help them refresh
their
>> >> perspective and appreciation.
>> >>
>> >> Life is too short and friends are too few."

I like it

[Cress]

But then again there's another part of welfare to consider, and that's the welfare that immigrants get. I'm reading a book about Hmong people, and although some of them have been on welfare for forever and are making no attempt to get off of it, it's because they have no way at all. They don't speak English and they don't have a way to learn English, so there's no way for them to get a job.
Then there's also the fact that although some people on welfare are content to stay on it and not try to get a job, it really doesn't pay that much and people probably want a better living than welfare. Plus, who likes being a complete parasite? There's a matter of pride.
So welfare is not what is keeping so many people in poverty, there are many other reasons too.
Also, a lot of the time kids don't like the example that their parents set for them and want to do better than their parents. Or their parents don't want them to be stuck in the same rut that they are and encourage them to go to school etc.
Truly, I don't know that much about this, just felt like being the Devil's Advocate.

[Gryphon]

Cress: Actually both M and I were nuetral (I guess you could call it that), just we had only argued one side. :P

There are people who really need it, who can't live without it, and the trap would be virtually impossible to get out of. Despite how many parasites there are, Welfare should exist for those who truly need it.