The Lone Power's gift?

[Taran]

I just read a thread from 2007 on Nita's mom's choice in WD. It made me think about how the Lone Power and death are understood by wizards throughout the books.

From the viewpoint of perfection and eternity, as well as from the point of view of everyone connected to a death, the fact that the Lone Power tricked the Powers into including death in the universe is a tragedy.

I know this personally. I've helped my wife through the deaths of her parents. We've lost cats together. I could never want that to happen.

But, even so, maybe death was a necessary gift? Maybe, without death, without loss to strive against, we would not feel so fiercely or love so strongly or live so intensely?

And if that's true, did the Lone Power add beauty and meaning to the universe as well as tragedy?

I'm not endorsing suicide. I want those I love to have every minute of good life they can I'm saying the game is different when the clock is running.

(I also don't think just living is enough. We decided to euthanize my cat Blue after we'd nursed him back from blood clots and a stroke and he had another heart attack. The pain he would have gone through otherwise could not have been explained to him. I loved him.)

From anybody's personal point of view, death is awful.

Still, was death a gift from the Lone Power to the universe? Did it add something important? Could sentient beings be what we are without entropy to battle?

What do you think?

[Stormwind]

Patience

Patience is one of the things that entropy teaches. We battle day in and day out, learning, changing - growing. Hopefully we live to our best potential, and that is where the Lone Power's gift is thwarted. Time heart exists - a place where even death can't touch. I think I understood this book in a better way than any of the others...
I've watched my mother suffer for years with a disease called Fibromyalgia... then to be diganosed with it myself about 10 years ago. Basically put, think of it as the WORST case of flu you've ever had, and multiply it by 10. That's how you feel day in and day out. The ethics of what Nita decided to do is similar to how I felt with seeing my mother suffer... and it made me stronger in the long run just as the situation in WD did to Nita and ultimately her whole family.
I think it makes everyone feel just a bit better believing that there is something on the other side of death. I've often wondered why it is that suffering can strengthen someone. It is because ultimately we all thrive on challenges, even those who seem to be lazy. The only thing that we need to be afraid of is fear itself.

[Birdhead]

I guess my feelings on this are twofold. Firstly, I do think the positive sides to the LP's gift/presence are explored in some places in the books; particularly at the end of HW, but also in the way the LP seems to exist in multiple forms in the Feline Wizards books. Sa'rraah (sp, sorry) is an interestingly ambivalent deity.

Secondly, though, I think there is an element of fallacy to what you're saying. I think we can all look at the world and see that things are difficult, from soggy cornflakes to the death of loved ones, and simultaneously see the truly amazing and beautiful things in the world, some of which come about because of and through heartache, and we begin to understand sorrow as a necessary part of our lives. And it is - that's the way the universe is. Entropy is running. But I also think that there are paths to beauty and success and reward that don't have to include sorrow and difficulty. Even without entropy, there are still things about life that are challenging and, once the challenge is surmounted, rewarding - but things that come easily are still valued.

I have to say it sort of reminds me of the old-fashioned idea that the lives of the poor were so much more worthy and valuable than the lives of the wealthy, because they struggled for what they had (and would therefore inherit the earth, etc.) But we know that's not true: a poor person's life is as valuable as a wealthy person's life, and it is easier for a wealthy person to achieve great and wonderful things because they don't have to struggle for them - not for a poor person, because they have to struggle with anything. A wealthy person might struggle getting a college education; a poor person might struggle to put food on the table. By analogy, with entropy running we mortals are struggling to (metaphorically) put food on the table; but imagine if we didn't have to worry about putting (metaphorical) food on the table. We could be struggling with... whatever a college education would be in this metaphor.

[Zirsta]

Taran, I think you're on to something with the idea that if entropy wasn't there, we'd be impacted. Really, think about it. If there's no entropy, there's no death. With no death, there's no reason to be concerned with what happens in life, because you know it'll always be able to get better, and that life can't end. That would mean that with no end to life, there isn't a reason to care. Without caring, you lose emotions. I mean, think. If it doesn't matter, since it can't end, why bother with love, hate, affection, fear, happiness. Also, if you have all the time in the world, what's the use of getting an education? Cause, if you can't die, there's no need to eat, or sleep, or take care of yourself. If that doesn't have to be taken care of, then you don't need money, or a job. Without needing a career, there's no use to learning. And if nothing need be achieved in life, there's no meaning to it, and sentient beings will lose sentience. With that, then the world would be a lot worse. Still, you have to think that if humans lose sentience, wouldn't that be better? Without all the smarts, we don't know about war. We'd have no reason for it. We wouldn't know about technology, thus getting rid of factories, and deleting pollution and global warming. We wouldn't know how to kill enormous amounts animals or people, how to send animals to the edge of extinction, how to over work land, animals or people, or how to destroy vast parts of our planet. Yet, then we'd find that that "life" would be lacking in what life's about. So maybe I'm rambling, or maybe this actually makes some sense.

[alla]

... I just lost my post :'(...

I am unsure if I could comprehend or even just pretend to understand a world without death, without entropy. Although, thinking about it, if we didn't have death, 'survival of the fittest' would be a moot point and the universe would be dominated by un-evolved ancient single celled organisms (provided that Darwin's theory is correct and can be applied throughout the universe).

I think that death was a necessary 'gift' in order to allow the diversification of life, and I agree that knowing that it will end at some stage allows us to appreciate things more.

... its not the post that it was, but I can't remember the rest of what I had written...

[Taran]

Entropy and meaning

I think that if death is a gift, it's the challenge to fill life with meaning despite a certain ending.

And that's more or less what I think Stormwind and Zirsta and Alla are saying with different emphases.

The ability to make meaning includes the ability to destroy it. The Lone Power bargains with peoples to trade away their choice, their freedom to make life mean what they will, in return for a false security, protection from death.

There's more on this in the feline wizards books as Birdhead points out, in DD's Tales of the Five books for adults, in Sherri Tepper's True Game series, and in a lot of other books. You can look at Pullman's His Dark Materials as being about this, see the UnMaker in Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series as the Lone Power doing the same thing, understand Faust as facing the same false choice, or perhaps as getting past it.

I don't know if I agree with Birdhead that "there are paths to beauty and success and reward that don't have to include sorrow and difficulty. Even without entropy, there are still things about life that are challenging and, once the challenge is surmounted, rewarding - but things that come easily are still valued."

Everything I care about seems to have some struggle against meaninglessness tied into it.

[wizardsrreal]

I would go with the Walt Disney theory of it. With every happines or fun thing, there has to be a tragety to counter it. the gift of death or entropy to the universe would give life meaning and make it worth living. It makes life have a purpose and balances everything out. the Lone Power by creating death balances out the pleasure of living by creating something equally matched in extravagance and meaning.

[Mealla]

You're right about that, Taran. I never thought about it before, but I now realize that what you said makes perfect sense. Without Death, there can be no life, and without sadness, no one can be truly happy.
Maybe the Lone One did do something right.

[illiriam]

No Rose without the Thorn

Firstly, I lost my mother at a very early age, and so the idea of a world without death, where she would still be here, is simply intoxicating. Yet, some good did come from it. I grew. I learned. I grew closer to my dad. He remarried and I gained a step-mom, a step-sister and a step-brother. If my mom were still here, they wouldn't be a part of my life and neither would my young nephew who I adore. Death, change, gives us a chance to grow and to experience new things, because if change wasn't forced upon us, most people would just get stuck in a rut once they found a situation that made them happy.
Second, I have heard this in so many books and shows and movies that it's practically cliche, but you can't have good without the bad, the light without the dark, the rose without the thorn, or life without death. If there was no sorrow, we wouldn't know or appreciate joy when we came across it. If we didn't know death will come for us, then our lives would become complacent and we would have no encouragement to live each day to the fullest. They say that the destination isn't everything, that the journey is vital, but we would have no journey of there wasn't a destination to spur us on, or drag us screaming by the ankle as with death.
This is just my view. I grieve that death is necessary, but I understand why it is.

[zilvox]

That depends. We cant concieve of life without death, so who are we to judge?

Truthfully though, death is something i couldn't live without. Than again without it i would not be me.