The human-centric nature of Other Manhattan

[Caitlin]

I'm speed re-reading in prep for GWP, and something new struck me while they were stealing the Dark Book, so I'm wondering:

Does the Universe choose the observer, or do the perceptions of the observer influence the Universe?

Consider the Universe at hand. It's a small, low-energy side universe where the LP has agreed to spend it's time on entropy and chill. Why would it be so closely aligned with human traits? It's nearly a dupe for Nita and Kit's New York and the LP turns up in a human shell. This close relationship makes me wonder if all the similarities are just there because it's how Nita and Kit percieve it. They're new, inexperienced wizards. New York is what they know. Would that Other Manhattan look different if they went there now? Or would it have appeared to Quelt like an Other Ala'alu? Would a Demisiv even see it as a city? Or would that appear as an Other Forest, twisted and dead?

I'm hoping it's the latter, that the Other Manhattan is just a shell tailored to the observer. The implications for the human race of a close relationship to a manifestation of the LP is a bit too unsettling for me.

[The White Falcon]

Kit and Nita's Ordeal is different from the others we've seen; the Lone Power seemed largely unaware that it was going to occur, and he spends most of his time reacting rather than being proactive. In the cases of Dairene and Darryl, he was prepared and went to fight, somewhat the same as Ronan's.

I'm going to have to go with the explanation that he's chosen to live that way, and in that form. We know some of the Powers grew to love the places they created; I don't think it's that out of character that he'd like a place that puts up a good fight. Then there's the interesting matter of everyone dancing around humanity's Choice (which DD's either withholding merely to leave it up to interpretation, or for plot reasons), so it could be theorized that Earth is a particularly important place.

Then again, of course it is, it has cocoa plants.

[EricG1793]

Wow, great thread, Caitlin! Nice catch on that.

I agree that it would be unsettling if the Dark Manhattan were -- universally for all wizards, whether human or dog or tree from Earth or from Mars or wherever else -- always an earthly human Manhattan. Kinda says a lot about us as a race, eh? LOL

But I think that the YW series as a whole is above that -- above harping on any one race, instead focusing on those from the rest of this universe and others as a whole, working together. I think that Dark Manhattan being centered on just us doesn't really fit the big picture.

White Falcon (if you posted a real name I apologize!), what about humanity's Choice? I actually can't remember reading about it... it's been a while since I've read through all the books. Have we not made it yet, or did we make the wrong one? For some reason I have a feeling this would have been discussed in DW... correct me if I'm wrong.

[The White Falcon]

White Falcon (if you posted a real name I apologize!), what about humanity's Choice? I actually can't remember reading about it... it's been a while since I've read through all the books. Have we not made it yet, or did we make the wrong one? For some reason I have a feeling this would have been discussed in DW... correct me if I'm wrong.

That's the thing, Kit and Nita will say things like "I wish we knew what went wrong with ours" and such, yet they never actually talk about it in detail.

[SpacePen]

stealing...

Hm. I suppose I always thought it partially due to perception of youths on Ordeal, but OTOH...

it is implied that Nita and Kit's Ordeal did have bigger immediate consequences than other Ordeals. E.g., Ronan's Ordeal seemed very localized, in comparison, directly affecting fewer people and a smaller location (though of course its indirect effects may be quite widespread); whereas Nita's and Kit's Ordeal, what with reading from The Book of Night with Moon, seems to immediately and directly affect everything in the Universe. Nita, Kit, Dairine and Co. are implied to be involved in quite a lot of high-profile interventions. If the LP chose Manhattan specifically, perhaps that is why the Powers that Be arranged for three high-powered, high-profile wizards to grow up within a short distance from NYC, and to have adult support in the form of muggle (am I allowed to use that term in YW?) parents & therapist who support their wizardry, and Seniors (and an abdal!) who live close by.

DD has written other works wherein you could infer that "our" world is particularly off, for whatever reason. I'm thinking of the description in Stealing The Elf-King's Roses of the 'newly discovered' earth which sounds suspiciously like our own. I'm not conflating STEKR with YW but just pointing out that the idea is there in different form in at least one of her non YW stories.

I do recall a lot of references to the human choice but no actual recounting of it. I rather think it's meant to be somewhat ambiguous, so that readers from different cultures or of differing religious ideas might still find applicability regardless of what version of "the choice" is most familiar to them. The first time I read of it, I couldn't help but recall the God & Adam & Eve & the Serpent & the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil story. Though I suppose one might just as well think of Pandora's Box, (or something), and it would still make sense.

[Caitlin]

So the events of the end of HW and how they were described started to make me think that what WF said was probably correct, that what Nita was seeing was tailored on her own perceptions of whatever was around her. And maybe that is exactly what was happening, at least during Nita and Kit's ordeal.

But as I worked my way through the rest of the books (I finished with one day to spare!), I started to think that maybe it really is a human-LP thing. You'll remember that first timed universe Nita encountered in the training universes was laid out like Manhattan, and Pont made reference several times to how weird that particular universe was. Nita might have been on her home turf and visualized everything as being like Manhattan (as she did in her first training run), but everyone else on that run was also seeing a warped Manhattan. So, in that case, it wasn't just Nita's perception making the universe look like Manhattan, the universe actually emulated Manhattan in some way.

I thought it even more when our intrepid friends encountered the LP in the form of The Great One, and he mentioned that the Yaldiv are the most promising species it's had to work with since earth humans. Maybe the LP just appears as human in our part of the universe because we're it's favorite playground for galaxies around? And why waste the energy to turn up looking like something else when you're already really invested in making a complete mess of a species? This, of course, brings me back to my original question of how we managed to attract so much of the LP's attention, long before Nita and Kit and associates launched into their whirlwind "Redeem the LP in every way possible 2k_" tour of our portion of the universe. Because if nothing else, that kind of thing is definitely going to get It's attention.

[The White Falcon]

their whirlwind "Redeem the LP in every way possible 2k_" tour of our portion of the universe.

Possibly the best way to put our view of their life thus far.