A Higher Price Than Death.....

[christmas]

I was re-reading this book when I noticed something interesting. When Nita is talking to Carl, he says something like: "There's no higher price than death. Well, one" But he doesn't elaborate. I was wondering what you guys thought it was.

[wolf_wizard]

Entropy? Wait... could it be more life than just yourself... or magic? I really don't know. i think that it's a prospect for speculation that we haven't thought of yet. I may tie into AWoM. Mybe it's humanity? becoming less than human, or living a half- life.... OK, I know I am Kind of taking this from HP...

[alla]

Oh wow... actual book discussion... Yay! I get the strangest feeling that there may be a discussion on this buried somewhere in the archives, but even so, there are so many new people and (possibly) fresh ideas around.

I think, to really think about this properly, you'd need to consider what the most important things to a wizard are. Many of them die 'in the line of fire' as it were, in fighting to prevent entropy from taking a hold, and in my opinion, maybe that is a good way for a wizard to go - if they have to; To die in the line of duty, and knowing that in their sacrifice, they will triumph over the Lone Power. Infact, I think that is part of the point of Deep Wizardry - Nita realises that she is willing to give up her life for her Art, in order to save the people that she loves from dying.

Could the higher price than death possibly be to give up one's Wizardry, willingly in order to thwart the Lone Power, but to know that it is still out there - to keep the knowledge of the person's time as a wizard, but to know that they could no longer fight that fight directly? No, that doesn't really make sense, as it has been stated (in nearly every book), that if a Wizard gives up Wizardry, then they lose the memory of what they did in their time as a wizard (I'd find the quotes that say this, but I do not have a copy of the book handy).

Edit: Could it be to give up the opportunity to go to Timeheart?

I'm going to have to have a rummage through the books when I get home and see if I can come up with anything else. I guess that there is always the humanity idea that Wolfy has mentioned.

[Tuttle]

I had been thinking it was giving up one's wizardry though that didn't fully make sense to me, but the idea of giving up going to timeheart seems to be really interesting to me.

The thing about giving up your wizardry not being more painful is that a) you forget, b) you do so to help fight the LP so its similar to dying in the sacrifice, c) you can fight some still without wizardry so you can still help fight the LP. You lose the magic, but your goal you can keep working towards.

Losing the ability to see those who've died and knowing you could would be hard though. I think that's the best thing I've heard of for a suggestion.

The other thing that I can think of is rather than you dying, knowing that someone else you love is dying. I don't think that wizardry would do that to you because it would not be fair to 'cause the death of others, but it'd be more painful and thus a higher price than death. I think Nita hurt a lot more with her mother's death than she did knowing she was 'going to' die.

Even just losing someone you love is probably near as hard. Like needing to tell them you can't talk to them even any more. Can you imagine them needing to split up Kit and Nita? Because the love that you'd lose doesn't need to be romantic, it'd be just as bad with strong platonic love like theirs.

You still are in pain years later I've heard. Like 4 or 5 years later still broken. I'm not sure it's a higher price than death, but I can imagine it could be if it was your partner.

edit: So thinking more about it I think even more that giving up your partner is also possibly a higher price than death. Especially if partners are supposed to be partners for life and you can't replace that connection (at least not easily).

[Raine~]

MAN makes me want to cry.

A higher price than death...

quoting the chapter titled "Theory and Implications of Wizardry" under the sub-heading "History, Philosophy, and the Wizard's Oath." from the Manual.
( SYWTBAW Prologue)


"The lone power invented death, and bound it irrevocably into the worlds."

"Words skillfully used...[can] even slow down the death of the Universe. That of course, is the reason there are wizards."

"A wizard, using the Speech, can cause death to slow down, or go somewhere else and come back later - just as the lone power caused it to come about in the first place"

"Creation, preservation, destruction, transformation- all are a matter of causing the fabric of being to do what you want it to. And the Speech is the key"

"The power conferred by use of the Speech has, of course, one insurmountable limitation: the existence of death itself."

"...there are no prizes for the service of Life-except life itself.

okay... let's think...

Introduce Death to a universe, bind it inextricably to the very fabric of the universe, on all worlds. Entropy's symptom is Death, and we see this death on a small scale in single celled organisms, multi-cellular animal life, biospheres, and even bright star systems. A thing is born, it lives, and it dies, the final toll of an entropic universe, which is slowly dying itself. Not even the lucky races who refused the Lone Power's advances are unaffected. Simply living in a world and universe affected by entropy impacts them in a meaningful manner.

Using the manual as reference, a price higher than death does not exist. A Wizard exists to slow down the Death of the Universe. For that purpose, is it unrealistic to imagine in order to combat death, one will inevitably experience it first hand. In an eternal struggle to balance forces of such great power, is it not possible that one must likewise balance one's own life on the scales. If such is true, if one was engaged in such a struggle, to give up or loose one's own life, to die would be the greatest sacrifice; the greatest price. For in dying, one looses connection to life... that which was so dear that a wizard sacrifices all for it.

musings

[Nights Mistress]

My theory?

Burnout. It's a concept we're introduced to in A Wizard Abroad where Nita thinks that what Ronan did on his Ordeal should have prevented him from using wizardry again, and again in Wizards at War where Nita's putting the stasis spell on Ronan. Basically, you become so sensitive to wizardry that it hurts really badly to use it. You know it's there but you just can't bear the pain to use it.

I think that's a worse fate than death for a wizard. Knowing that you should be helping, knowing that the universe needs all the wizards it can get ... and not being able to help? That'd suck.

[River_OF_Ireland]

SPOILERS If you haven't read book 5, don't read my post. ^_^;;

I think like Alla said it might be giving up one's wizardry. In A Wizards Dilema Nit has that choice. Loose Wizardry or loose Mom. That was a really hard choice for her. To me it seems like for a wizard to loose their wizardry would make them go throughout life broken and half empty and not knowing why- she'd be utterly miserable; things like to do what they where made for- if a wizard isn't a wizard... That could be worse than death.

[smile]

I agree with Nights Mistress about burnout - you cannot bear to let wizardry run through you, but yet have memory and can watch as the universe starts to lose to the Lone Power. You might be able to help still, but still... (especially because a wizard's greatest joy is practicing the Art)

this would not happen, but if a wizard was forced to turn to the Lone Power in order to save something (such as Nita's mother,)but had to do it because it was the only option (though there is always an option), or because it might help, that would be a terrible terrible price.

But like Rio said, (spoiler for book five), Nita's choose, mom or wizardry might be the wosrt - someone you love is the worst, loving wizardry is the worst.

The loosing someone you love - What would Kit have done in deep wizardry? He probably would have rathered die than to let Nita die. Then he would be loosing his life, but to help. Nita was helping too, but he would still loose her...

(sorry for typos)

[alla]

I got the impression, and there's no direct quote, but that if Nita had gone through with the sacrifice, Kit would not have returned home. The indirect quote (i.e. you have to interpret from it) is:

Kit: (pp 283, Magic Carpet edition)
" 'All for one', remember? We both have to come out of this alive."

He also suggested (on the same page) that he would take Nita's place in the song. So he was willing to sacrifice himself to save her.

[wolf_wizard]

I think that it could be burnout, but I think that loosing Timeheart would be the worse. I mean, what happens when you die? with Timeheart, you know what will happen to you. and without it... well, I think that wizards are happy for the garuntee (sorry for the typo)that they will go to Timeheart. They want other people to be able to go to Timeheart as well. I think that would be worse... what comes after your death... depending.

[smile]

Yes, that is a good point. Awizard knows that when they leave another wizard, they will at least see them in Timeheart. If you lost Timeheart before death, you would not be able to visit loved ones eather, or in the case of Dairine, in W@W, find answers about loved ones.

edit - Or maybe the worst thing would be someone else loosing Timeheart...

[Raine~]

Ohhhhh...

I like your edit smile.

I'm sticking to what I said earlier but I'll say a few more lines.

Loosing one's wizardry is not equal to loosing one's life imho because while one lives there is always hope, even without wizardry you can make a change. If you're dead there is no future, no chance for change.

Loosing Timeheart on the other hand, is an interesting proposition. I need to reread the parts of the books involving timeheart to get a clearer idea of what this entails though. Anyone know what pages in what books would be useful to look at?

Another person loosing Timeheart, is an interesting proposition as well.

[wolf_wizard]

I don't think that it would be another person loosing Timeheart. I think that it would be close, but there is still hope for that person; I mean, you have to love/be loved to get into Timeheart, don't you? So I think that it sounds like they would still have a chance... or maybe... it's an entire world/population loosing access to Timeheart... Because that would be really bad; a world in which no one loved anyone else, as they were incapable of doing so would keep them from Timeheart, and I think life would be rather dull. just an idea.

[Wizfan_6]

How about surrendering to the LP? Giving up the fight but continuing in the Art under the LP direction. Not only would you be losing your life from before (you couldn't get away with it undetected forever), you'd have to fight/kill your friends, and you'd still get ripped off in whatever deal you made with the LP.

[kk]

I would say a price worse than death is to live forever. I think it would be too horrible to bear.

Another idea, though, is that the LP could force you to do something, like, force an overshadowed wizard to do evil, and then make them watch the evil that they caused. Like, if It made a wizard kill something, or destroy something...that would also be extremely painful, knowing that it was you who caused it.