"There's no higher payment that can be made."

[FragmentsofReality]

(AWoM spoilers ahead!)

Something higher than lifeprice, something that a human cannot pay...

Well, when I initially read this a couple of options sprang to mind as to the "higher price":

1) True death. Not just loss of life, but dying. Finality. The end. To understand this, look at AWoM - Mamvish tells Carmela that, "there's dead and then there's really dead" and Nita herself talks about deceased wizards when she's looking up Rosaun's status: "Recall. Nitat had seen it often enough in the listing of wizards from Earth, both those whose lives had been lost in the line of duty and those who had died in other circumstances. The implication seemed to be that once you were a wizard, maybe you never stopped being one unless you really wanted to - and even after you were dead, or what passed for dead in the Real World, the Powers That Be nonetheless still considered you to still be on some kind of duty. It was, in a strange way, reassuring." What if the price higher than lifeprice is true death? Not recall, but the finality of termination.

2) Loss of soul. Not just the end of physical existence, but everything, spiritual and emotional as well as corporeal. The energy return would certainly be higher - but I'm not sure of how Timeheart would affect or be affected by that, assuming loss of soul would invoke any change in one's Timeheart status at all. I do think that being asked to give up admittance to Timeheart is possibly the highest price that can be paid, but how it plays into the "what is loved" concept I'm not sure. That idea would require a bit more studying and possibly some explanations from the Bosslady.

3) I really like PK's earlier postulation on the whole "loss of self/incorporation into a spell" idea that our guest elaborated on. Human beings aren't meant to not be human, and everything about humanity is tied up in identity. There is nothing any human values more than their own sense of self, and to have to give that up - it's be terrible. Or the guest's idea about being forced to devote your entire concentration to a spell so that one lives without actually living - that seems pretty awful too.

4)One other thing that occured to me that no one had mentioned yet - What if the higher price was the ability to build a future? The ability to have kids? The Powers are all about Life - I think not being able to further Life by bearing one's own children is an extrememly high price, with the wizard essentially paying the "cost" of the life of each unborn child, the spark of potential of new life they held. While this seems a bit darker than what the Bosslady usually goes for, if each unborn is counted as a seperate life that is certainly higher than one individual's lifeprice. I don't really see the Bright Powers accepting this as payment, but it's something to think about.

I did consider loss of wizardry and turning to the Lone One, but both of these represent further energy losses, not payment, I think. Especially the second option. And I don't think the powers would demand some else's life as the lifeprice - their value is essentially equal to your own, as I don't think the Powers value any one being above another. If they did, Ed would not have been allowed to substitute for Nita because his lifeprice would have been different. Thoughts?

[Tobiasscrabble]

Exactly

Because not only would u die but so would tons of others regardless of if it was intentional or not and I don't think that u can be forgivin for that deep of a betrayal and you know afterward dairine ordeal would have flopped and the mobiles would have been the cause of a new deadly wave of entropy that none could fix

[zilvox]

the higher price is death without admittance to timeheart afterward

[Tobiasscrabble]

What if

It's refusual to timeheart that seems to be the worst thing ever regardless because that would explian his reaction

[estar9821]

This may very well earn the title of Most Complicated Question On The Forum.

It could be loss of wizardry, but something tells me it's more complicated...but aren't the most complicated things the simplest sometimes? I dunno. Reading this thread=an excellent way to make your head hurt.

[bookgirl]

Perhaps just as bad as your own life, is not the loss of wizadry, but the loss of that world - yes, you'd be alive... but to have known the wonders of the world, and not only lose them, but to have it made that you never knew them in the first place - that's gotta sting. To lose the friendships you made, and leave behind the people you loved, to rid yourself of all that - it could tear you apart.

Yes! That is exactly what I meant, I just didn't say it as well. lol.

[NickRyan]

Maybe it's to live out your life in complete solitude. I know that would be absolutely horrible to have no friends or companions and maybe lose wizardry as well so you would feel useless and alone.

[Dragon Writer]

There's actually more than one thing - the memories of your loved one, or worse, the life of the one you love... The only thing more precious than your own life, is the life of that who you care about.

Perhaps just as bad as your own life, is not the loss of wizadry, but the loss of that world - yes, you'd be alive... but to have known the wonders of the world, and not only lose them, but to have it made that you never knew them in the first place - that's gotta sting. To lose the friendships you made, and leave behind the people you loved, to rid yourself of all that - it could tear you apart.

[estar9821]

I don't think the sacrifice greater than giving up your life is losing wizardry. I'd rather have that happen than die. I always thought that when Nita almost gave up her life was a big defining moment for her. I think we all like to think that we would do the same if it came down to it, but how many of us really would? I'm not sure I would, but I like to think I would.

On this topic, it could be that the price higher than life is sacrificing your life for others, and in that case, Carl wrapped up that mystery in the same conversation. But somehow I don't think that's what it is. It's too simple, too easy. I'd think DD could come up with something more complicated. Just what, I have no idea.

[bookgirl]

I just barely reread this book again, or rather I listened to the audio book.

Here is my idea. What if the greatest sacrifice is to put all of your powers into a spell and to lose them completely. After that the person will still be alive and live a normal life, but will always know that they had their wizardry but they can no longer access the magic, or anything to do with wizardry. They wouldn't be able to hear trees speak, or cars. That person would have to live the rest of their life with that hole in their heart, and instead of not knowing why they felt like that, they would know exactly why. And would know what it was that they had lost.

Anyway, that's my idea. I'm not sure if how I said that is very clear, but that was how I felt after reading the story again.

[SilveredBlue]

Okay, okay, so what if the highest price was not dying, but becoming really old or going into stasis or something?
One person said something about Kit telling Nita that shielding from the LP took one year off her lifespan- so that's one year when she is not using energy. So the 'unlived years' represent a certain amount of as yet unconsumed energy, right? And *SPOILER* (sry don't know how to do the text blank thing yet) if Nita had died her 'energy ration' would be 0.

So what if instead of dying she took all those unlived years and put their, um, potential energy into the spell? That would be a 'higher price', and the result would be that the wizard who did that would become old or die right after that.

The reason I don't hold with the 'binding all her energy into the spell' theory is *SPOILER for W@W!!!* that Nita was prepared to do this at the Crossings and there was no mention of that being the highest price then.

So that is the crazy idea I came up with after rejecting all the other theories.

[Gracie]

I've thought about that, Zergplex, how the price might have been having another loved one take your place. But if you look at Ed's and Nita's relationship, it's not exactly "loving". They are fairly close but considering they've only had one really deep conversation, and the rest involve Nita being scared or Ed being hungry, it probably would not have been as big as a sacrifice as if maybe Kit died instead of Ed. But that's just my opinion, I have no idea what the Powers consider a big enough sacrifice.

[Zergplex]

The Greatest of Costs

I believe that Carl's comment on a higher payment then sacrificing your own life was foreshadowing of Ed's death later on in Deep Wizardry. Sacrificing yourself is a high payment, but having another person you love sacrifice him/herself in your place is a far greater one. When you sacrifice yourself you pass on to timeheart after all, but the sacrifice of another life is a burden you will always carry, long after the grief passes.

After all, from what I understand of the magic system in Young Wizards, a life offered to save another inherently has a higher value then one simply offered in payment. Selflessness and love both add value to a life. Nita of course was offering her life to save another (to save many others, by reenacting the Song of Twelve), but that doesn't make Ed's choice any less meaningful, powerful, or cost-fulfilling.

A life given willingly to save another is the greatest of gifts, burdens, and costs.

-Ronny

[Tsakaki]

I always thought that the higher price would be the end of the world. Atlantis all over again.

Ooo, that's a good one, I never thought of that. I took it as either a loss/sacrifice of one's wizardry or maybe the loss of a loved one or friend.

I think it's probably something that's either happened to Carl or that he's seen happen to someone, what with the way he reacted.

I'm sure Diane'll bring it up again, she seems to be very thorough. I certainly hope so at least.

[SpacePen]

just to throw something into the mix....

i've been reading the feline wizard books and duane there specifies that cats have nine lives, and one of the cat-wizards does pay the powers for access to something by giving up one of the nine lives. I wonder if a cat-wizard life is the "same" price as a human-wizard life? If so, a cat would conceivably be able to pay a higher than life price by paying for something with more than one of their lives.