jes_battis: sorry i'm late
Garrett Fitzgerald: No problem, looks like everyone else is too. :-(
jes_battis: uh-oh, i'm unmoderated!
Garrett Fitzgerald: (Almost everyone)
EricG1793: It built up the suspense. No problem. :)
jes_battis: well, 3 visitors usually makes an academic conference :)
Garrett Fitzgerald: lol
EricG1793: Many people couldn't make it, unfortunately....
jes_battis: guess they were on errantry
EricG1793: Exactly.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Guess so. :-) Oh, well, chat transcripts are wonderful things...
EricG1793: Well, should we get started or wait a little while?
jes_battis: fire away
EricG1793: Well, there's a problem.... I haven't gotten a chance to read the essay. :(
EricG1793: But I do have a question: Where did you pick up on the Young Wizards books?
jes_battis: well, i found the first book at a library booksale when I was 11 years old--it actually snagged my finger! so i fell in love with her writing after that, and really, Duane's work made me want to write
Garrett Fitzgerald: LOL! Other people here have reported that....
EricG1793: Yes... it seems the most common way. :D
jes_battis: i wrote a bit about Duane's work as an M.A. student, but didn't get a chance to publish anything until later. originally that article was about Duane and Tanya Huff, but it eventually just became about the young wizards
EricG1793: Well, it's great that you put the spotlight on Young Wizards. :)
EricG1793: How long did it take you to write the essay?
jes_battis: oh, not long, i tinkered with it for a few months and then sent it to Mosaic--they have a long peer review process, so it didn't appear in print for over a year
Garrett Fitzgerald: Did you figure out anything while writing it you didn't already know about the books?
jes_battis: well, i did notice that first 3 books were written in quite a different style. they were much darker and i enjoyed them more as an adult--the following books seemed more definitively teenlit, although with some dark elements
EricG1793: I never noticed that.
EricG1793: Did DD's books cause you to look at the world differently? For example, my camera right next to be could start talking to me right now? Or entropy is effecting everything around me, including myself?
Garrett Fitzgerald: I have to switch windows for a while -- I messed up a brochure I was doing for my mum-in-law, and she's here to get it straightened out.
jes_battis: well, i do remember saying 'Dai'Stiho' to my cat when i was 12 in the hopes that he would answer back
Garrett Fitzgerald: Hee. I've done that too.....
EricG1793: I think I did similar....
EricG1793: to that.
EricG1793: Gaah! I don't know what i'm trying to say....
EricG1793: What do you mean by the first few books being darker? I read about that in the first part of the essay. The later books had more association with the Lone Power. However, the Dark Manhattan is pretty scary....
jes_battis: there was more death in the first three books, i thought, and the writing was more charged
EricG1793: Dai Stiho, Lazy Leopard!
jes_battis: i remember being more scared of the Lone Power in the first 3 books...he was more bitchy and sarcastic later
EricG1793: The books kind of hint that he was starting to change.
EricG1793: That there's a possibility that he could go back to being good.
EricG1793: Or was he ever good?I wasn't ever able to get a grasp on that....
EricG1793: Dai Stiho, gryphon! :)
jes_battis: well, Nita draws the arrow on the book of night with moon, to give him a way out--but there seem to be different versions of him on each world, some 'nicer' than others
EricG1793: Yeah, I think it was in W@W, or Wizard's Holiday, that he was the form of a woman, and he wasn't so bad then.... But when he's in the form of the young man, he's not the brightest ray of sunshine.
EricG1793: Dai Sean! :)
Lazy Leopard: Hi
Gryphon: heyy :D
Gryphon: that's... new... i can't see what i type becaus it's being moderated
Gryphon: well, welcome, jes :D typically we get more of a crowd when the chat is open; i'll tell people to come
jes_battis: he was scariest in book1 when he's riding on the statue, i think
jes_battis: thanks!
Tuttle: Yay for guest chats
Garrett Fitzgerald: Sorry, folks.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Back in a bit....
Gryphon: haha, no prob garrett *hugs*
EricG1793: You all have missed a lot of questions Garrett and I have given Dr. Battis.
EricG1793: You can always read the transcript. :)
jes_battis: jesus, don't call me that! it's Jes!
EricG1793: Roger, Jes! :)
Gryphon: ya, sorry for coming in late; i only just now realized that there was supposed to be something today
jes_battis: i actually have to duck out for maybe 20 minutes, but i'll come right back--is that cool?
Sean L.: no problem, Jes.
Gryphon: ya; i'll come around then too
EricG1793: OK. We'll just have idle chat, like we usually do, while you're gone. :D
Gryphon: i have to knock some homework out of the way
jes_battis: sweet, must get coffee! and feed the cat and blah blah blah, but will be right back
EricG1793: So, everyone, how have things been going lately? We haven't had so many people in Chat for a long time. :)
jes_battis: sweet, brb...
Sean L.: You mean, we haven't had chat for a long time?
EricG1793: We have in short periods when Garrett's had the time to open it.
Tuttle: ROBOTS!
EricG1793: But the last time I saw this many people was the last DD chat, which was months ago. :(
Tuttle: there, back to normal chat. Also, totally worth mentioning 'cause there's currently a regional going on which we're competing at
EricG1793: LOL
EricG1793: I haven't been on very much here lately.
Gryphon: mmm
Gryphon: i remember skimming a thread about the essay by this person
Gryphon: but ehh... i feel bad cuz i don't know any of the details
EricG1793: I'll give a link to an introduction so you can get the theme of it:
Gryphon: eric, do you think you could fill me in on a little about what you guys talked about?
Gryphon: i'm curious, but i don't want to repeat questions ><
EricG1793: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-7104513/I-am-the-molten-heart.html
EricG1793: Hold on....
EricG1793: I'll just tell you the questions I asked, but I don't want to type the answers all out. For that, there's the transcript. :)
EricG1793: The questions Garrett and I asked are:
Gryphon: is jes a girl?
EricG1793: Where did you pick up on the YW series?
Garrett Fitzgerald: Nope, guy.
Gryphon: oo, then i approve :D
Sean L.: ...
EricG1793: I can't resist, he picked up on the YW books the classic way - his finger being snagged on the book in a library. :rolleyes:
Gryphon: heh
EricG1793: How long did it take to write the essay?
Gryphon: how long is the essay, by the way? (if you know off hand)
EricG1793: Did you figure out anything while writing it you didn't already know abou the books?
EricG1793: Did DD's books cause you to look at the world differently?
Gryphon: i want to ask him about why he took an interest in the feminist side of the novels
EricG1793: What did you mean about the first few books being darker?
EricG1793: Then right after that, you all started coming in and no more questions were asked.
EricG1793: Let's brainstorm some more, shall we?
Gryphon: yaa
Gryphon: haha
EricG1793: Ah, antoher person!
Gryphon: i have to write a literary analysis for a different book
EricG1793: You all are late! :mad:
EricG1793: LOL, just kidding. :D
Gryphon: i'd rather find out about this person
EricG1793: Good question, Gryphon.
EricG1793: I was actually the first person in the room... before Garrett.... (the room automatically opened itself at 1:30)
EricG1793: I was obviously extremely excited. :D
EricG1793: Had you all realized he was coming in it was at 2? 'Cuz you pretty much all arrived at 3....
Cyber Mirage: I need to check on the forum more often...
EricG1793: That's an opinion. :P
EricG1793: Come around whenever you have time....
Cyber Mirage: ah.. 11 pacific.... oops... -.-
EricG1793: I kind of like the fact that it was earier, because I have to go to my grandfather's, and the fact that I won't be in here as long means that I can get there sooner.
Cyber Mirage: blah... and now I have to leave... not fair.. ><
EricG1793: :(
EricG1793: Why're we all so quiet?
Gryphon: aa
Gryphon: i just got accepted into a university
Garrett Fitzgerald: Congrats, Gryph. :-)
Gryphon: haha
EricG1793: Congratulations! :)
Gryphon: it's an in state university; i want to go out of state... so this was one of my back ups
Gryphon: i think their tuition is like what... $15,000, and they're offering me $1500
EricG1793: I'm excited to see _Jes_'s (not Dr. Battise :D) answer to Gryphon's question.
Gryphon: bennington offered $18500 in merit... but that one is really expensive ><
Gryphon: but back to battise
EricG1793: Did you read that introduction yet?
Gryphon: ya
EricG1793: I wish I could read the whole thing.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Ok, de-modded. :-)
Garrett Fitzgerald: Oh, great, did I break it?
EricG1793: Well, now that we have more people in here, maybe he can do a re-cap.
EricG1793: I haven't been modded this whole time, Garrett.....
EricG1793: After all, Garrett did ask him to.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Right, I've been de-modding people -- I just demodded the whole room.
Gryphon: i'm interested in why sexuality is a huge focus
Gryphon: and feminism
Garrett Fitzgerald: Once Jes gets back, on-topic would be good. :-)
EricG1793: Of course. :)
EricG1793: We won't let you down! :D
Gryphon: ya lol
EricG1793: I"ll start packing for my grandfather's while he's not here.
EricG1793: Be right back.
Lazy Leopard: Did I get the chat start time wrong?
jes_battis: sorry, the chat window kept crashing my computer
Gryphon: hey
Gryphon: no problem
jes_battis: i've relocated to a cafe where i can receive hourly injections, as well as an enormous waffle
Gryphon: nice :P
EricG1793: Now you've got it made. :D
Gryphon: mmm
Gryphon: i was curious
jes_battis: i got sucked into a claudication???
Gryphon: heh
Gryphon: i'm not sure how to word this question
jes_battis: fred is my favorite character
jes_battis: oh, just shoot
jes_battis: i cry every time i read his death scene
Gryphon: but i noticed that you took something of a feminist approach or at least took an interest in it when analyzing diane duane's book
Gryphon: so... why? and also, what did you feel was most important?
jes_battis: yeah, i'm a *****-feminist scholar, so i have to write from that perspective
EricG1793: Hmm... now that you mention that, Gryph, I notice that to.
Gryphon: haha, sorry that the chat censors things :P
jes_battis: i can't say *****?
jes_battis: ****
Gryphon: qu---?
EricG1793: No bad words at all. :P
Gryphon: the chat is homophobic
jes_battis: it is!
Gryphon: heh
jes_battis: can i say kweer?
jes_battis: ok, that works
Gryphon: haha
jes_battis: i a a kweer-feminist schola
Garrett Fitzgerald: hee
Sean L. blinks.
jes_battis: no, i think that duane works from a feminist framework with her empowered teen girls and female characters
Sean L.: hmm
EricG1793: Really?
Sean L.: Tamora Pierce feminist?
Gryphon: are you a grad student?
jes_battis: i mean, the only power-that-be that we really meet is a woman
jes_battis: and dairine can save the universe
EricG1793: I was worrie about that....
Garrett Fitzgerald: Sorry 'bout tht....
EricG1793: 's okay, let's just hope Jes can get back in....
Gryphon: hey
Gryphon: does jes know that you're keeping it open?
EricG1793: We reached the 3:30 closing time.
Lazy Leopard: *blinks* Yes, it was a bit determined to close things down...
EricG1793: It shouldn't do that if there's a moderator in it....
Gryphon: is jes a professor?
EricG1793: Uh-oh, he's not coming back....
EricG1793: Things had been going so well....
Garrett Fitzgerald: I just emailed him, hopefully he's checking. :-)
Garrett Fitzgerald: He's an "adjunct instructor"
EricG1793: I just put a message in the shoutbox....
Gryphon: O.o
Gryphon: what does that mean?
Gryphon: yeah, and i sent him a pm XD
EricG1793: I think he'll get the point. :rolleyes: :bouncinghappy:
Garrett Fitzgerald: Gryph, ask him -- I can't keep track. :-)
Gryphon: heh
EricG1793: Or google it. :P
EricG1793 goes back to packing until when and if Jes comes back
EricG1793: Yaay!
Gryphon: hey again
Garrett Fitzgerald applauds wildly.
EricG1793: I didn't even have to get out my chair! :D
jes_battis: the chat window is antifeminist
Gryphon: haha
Garrett Fitzgerald offers Jes a clue-by-4 to whack him with
Gryphon: the injustices of society
EricG1793: No, we just reached the 3:30 time limit.
Lazy Leopard: Or something. ;)
Garrett Fitzgerald: Seemed reasonable when I set it up originally. :-)
jes_battis: i wave my kweer butt at the chat window
Gryphon: haha
EricG1793 mentally models this event
Gryphon: for background, i'm a [female] senior in highschool, taking classes like calculus, and i grew up in a very non traditional family
Gryphon: mmm, so i have a big feminist streak
Garrett Fitzgerald offers eric a wire brush to scrub his brain
jes_battis: what i was trying to say earlier is that i think Duane's young female characters represent a really positive model for young readers, especially since they're such great communicators
EricG1793 gladly accepts; this isn't something he wants lingering in his brain
jes_battis: i'm a gay academic and fantasy writer--i wrote my PhD on gay fantasy literature and psychoanalysis
jes_battis: and i love this waffle
EricG1793: Then there's the Speech.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Jes, does Vanyel play into this somewhere? :-)
EricG1793: What's your opinion on the Speech, Jes?
jes_battis: what makes the Speech so fascinating is that it levels the magical playing field--your power springs from your creativity and your courage to speak, not just some inner talent or magical object
jes_battis: and it divides the universe into organic codes that can be manipulated to an infinite degree
jes_battis: i think the books are so much about how forces try to shut us up! but we have to keep talking, esp if we're young girls
jes_battis: not that i'm a young girl--i'm a 28 year old boy. but i did identify with nita a lot as a kid and still do
Garrett Fitzgerald nods.
EricG1793 as wel
Garrett Fitzgerald: I wonder how many people identify with _Kit_ instead.
Garrett Fitzgerald: Probably fewer?
jes_battis: he is a fascinating character! not a lot of young hispanic boys were appearing in fantasy lit in 1986 when she wrote SYWTBAW
Gryphon: we don't see as much of kit as we do of nita
jes_battis: and he's the one who really 'outs' them to nita's parents in Deep Wizardry, when he floats in front of them
EricG1793: Jes, what's your opinion on the way that, throughout the books, the main characters and scenarios with each one changes?
EricG1793: A Wizard Alone mostly focuses on Kit... High Wizardry focuses on Darine, etc.
jes_battis: well, the first book is primarily Nita/Kit, as well as the second...then we get Dairine. after that, i think Duane tries to include a lot of different characters, but i prefer the Nita/Kit dynamic. their friendship is just the tiniest bit sexual, but, like when Willow and Tara first meet in BtVS, all of the sex gets channeled into magic as a metaphor. the Speech is very sexy
EricG1793: Jes, do you have time to do a recap of your essay, and once you're done, we can actually ask questions on that?
jes_battis: i think maybe Dairine was too much of a loner, and harder to write about--her focus and her frustration were very intense. but i identify with her as well, esp when she realizes that her sister has a 'secret'
jes_battis: sure! let me do that now:
jes_battis: *pauses to grab coffee*
EricG1793 agrees with Jes about Dairine
jes_battis: the article was basically about how Duane uses The Speech as a different kind of magic that has something to say about adolescence
jes_battis: i argued that her child characters were ultimately more responsible than her adult characters
jes_battis: and that the kids' willingness to face the Lone Power echoes the real-life plight of marginalized kids in the world who face scary situatiions every day
jes_battis: i also argued that, with the Speech, Nita is able to express herself physically, because she can metamorphose into a whale, etc. it's also about sex and gender and how she feels in her body, and the magic is part of that. we all kind of wish that we could use magic to transform ourselves as teens! (now i just use hair gel)
Gryphon: true
EricG1793 continues listening
EricG1793: Or are you done?
jes_battis: i think so...i could yammer for a while
Gryphon: continue :P
Garrett Fitzgerald: Yammer on. :-)
EricG1793: WEll, that's what you're here for, right? :D
Garrett Fitzgerald: *headdesk headdesk headdesk* http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-emo-emu.jpg
jes_battis: well...my big questions in the article were: is the Speech somehow feminist? How does it make Nita and Dairine powerful? and what about teen sexuality? Duane's characters never really flirt, kiss, or have sex (albeit rarely) so i was curious about that--was The Speech a kind of sex?
Gryphon: how so?
Garrett Fitzgerald: (sorry, I'm congenitally incapable of staying on topic)
jes_battis: well, they're teens, right? their hormones fuel the magic. so if they're not sleeping with each other....where does the sexuality go?
EricG1793: Garrett: And it was your idea to have this be a moderated chat TO stay on topic! :P
EricG1793: I agree with your points, Jes.
Gryphon: hey
EricG1793: Dai Stiho KK!
kk: Hi!
Lazy Leopard: There's a bit of confusion about Dairine's age early on, and aren't Kit and Nita fairly young teens?
jes_battis: damn, now i'm distracted by lolcats.
Gryphon: haha
jes_battis: Nita is 12 going on 13 in the first book
EricG1793: I think Dairine's 13 in the first book(s).
jes_battis: i sure as heck was thinking about boys at 12!
EricG1793: *NIta, not Dairine
jes_battis: dairine is 11
jes_battis: "an 11 year old stick of a thing in an admiral ackbar t-shirt." one of my fave lines
kk: I thought she was younger in the first books
Lazy Leopard: (I'll confess to being old enough and slow enough a developer that I figured the whole concept of sex was some weird joke 'til I was at least 14...)
EricG1793: I think Jes is right.
EricG1793: Darn it, I used to have the whole series on my desk, right next to my computer, for quick reference if needed, but now they're back on my bookshelf! :mad:
kk: isn't Dari 13 in W@W?
EricG1793 goes to room to retrieve entire YW series
Garrett Fitzgerald: Jes: http://youngwizards.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5406022044/m/9896043403?r=2111004864#2111004864
jes_battis: i can't click on those links
Garrett Fitzgerald: Oops, won't work. Hang on....
jes_battis: i have a mac
EricG1793 hates Macs
EricG1793: Anyway...
jes_battis: macs rule
EricG1793: OK, entire YW series in my lap. :)
jes_battis: hehehehe
EricG1793: What did we want to know again?
EricG1793: Ah yes, Dairine's age....
Lazy Leopard: The first book had her as about 9, but she jumped closer to Nita's age in the second, IIRC?
jes_battis: how old is dairine in the first 3 books?
Garrett Fitzgerald: http://tinyurl.com/29uoth
jes_battis: ah...got it
Gryphon: it's up for debate
jes_battis: well, in the 3d book, she does look at Kit and find him kind of hot
jes_battis: but i always thought Kit was gay
Gryphon: heh
jes_battis: yay, the cafe is playing Belle and Sebastian
Gryphon: it's the general concensus of the forums that tom and carl are
jes_battis: yes!!!!! thank you
Gryphon: hahaha
jes_battis: the dudes live together, and Carl appears to Nita in a towel
jes_battis: i doubt he'd do that otherwise
Gryphon: hahahaha
Garrett Fitzgerald: This link might work better... http://donnael.com/images/Pastrami.png
jes_battis: hahahaha! yay Riow
jes_battis: what's the ailurin word for litter box again?
Garrett Fitzgerald: haouissh?
jes_battis: jesus, did that come from the top of your head, garrett?
EricG1793: Page 28, SYWTBAW:
Garrett Fitzgerald: Yes, but it's not quite right.
Garrett Fitzgerald: *checks book*
EricG1793: "Dairine was eleven years old, redheaded like her mother, grey-eyed like Nita, and precocious;..."
Garrett Fitzgerald: hiuoh-box
jes_battis: hehe
jes_battis: i love Riow, reminds me of my cat
jes_battis: she may be a wizard
Garrett Fitzgerald: hauissh is The Game. Oops. :-)
Lazy Leopard: Hmmm... Might have been something fixed in later editions? PeterM was fond of pointing out inconsistancies, and Dairine's age was one that got more than one mention over the years.
Lazy Leopard: (Must dig out descriptions of the cats some time.)
jes_battis: i think she had to be made younger once it was decided that young wizards had more power
jes_battis: it happens...you write a book, then work on a sequel, and stuff changes
Lazy Leopard: Ah. That could have been teh way of it...
Garrett Fitzgerald: Is it Bujold who explicitly reserved the right to have a better idea later?
jes_battis: so true!
Lazy Leopard: (Figure there's enough green...)
jes_battis: i always forget how old my teen character is
jes_battis: i think she's turning 14 now
Gryphon: are you working on a novel?
EricG1793 struggles to find Dairine's age in A Wizard's Holiday, but gives up, since we seem to have moved on from the issue.
EricG1793: Well, it's about time for me to go....
Gryphon: aw *hugs*
Gryphon: syaa
EricG1793: I was expecting to have this done an hour and a half ago. :rolleyes: OH, well, longer is better, but too bad I can't stay that long.
EricG1793: Well, Jes, thank you so very much for coming to our humble chat room and discussing your essay and Diane's books! :)
EricG1793: It was a very nice experience.
Lazy Leopard: The age-ing of teen characters is a troublesome affair...
EricG1793: Of course, I'll look at the transcript of what happens after I go. ;)
EricG1793: Maybe we can do this again some time....:confused:
Gryphon: i feel that the most significant elements of maturity
Gryphon: are things like individuality, independence, etc
Lazy Leopard: ...and retro-fitting time-lines can be an interesting exercise. :)
Gryphon: it's more or less... finding a niche of your own and making something of it
jes_battis: ok--feel free to email me at jbattis@gmail.com, and let me know when you'd like me to stop by again. Also, check out Fangs, Fur and Fey, the livejournal community I belong to--full of great urban fantasists
EricG1793: Dai everyone, have a good... err....time until whenever the chat will next be open!
Gryphon: when you grow up... people start out fluid and easily influenced
Lazy Leopard: Bye Eric
EricG1793: Yes, Jes, I certainly hope we can do this again some time, and maybe DD could make it, too! :D
Gryphon: i'll check out the lj community
EricG1793: Nice talking to everyone.
Gryphon: thanks :D
jes_battis: alright, cya!
